The Ivory Hunters: History of the Detroit Tigers Scouting and Development: Del Baker- EP 115 Artwork

Detroit City of Champions

1935. The Great Depression. Detroit is ranked as the hardest hit city in America. Speramus Meliora Resurgent Cineribus Akin to a miracle something incredible began to happen. Detroit began to win in a way that had never been seen before…or since. The Tigers, Lions and Red Wings all won their first Championships. An unknown Joe Louis would rise to international super stardom. Speed boat racing, tennis, track and field, golf, bowling, swimming, firearms…champions all and all from Detroit. In this calendar year the city could claim 33 national championships. A celebration followed that has no equal in the annals of American sport. Holidays were declared, a plaque was signed by the president as well as every governor in the country recognizing Detroit as THE City of Champions… …and then…the story was forgotten. What happened in 1935? How did it happen? Why was it forgotten? Why should we care? These topics and many more will be explored by veteran radio host Jamie Flanagan a

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Detroit City of Champions

The Ivory Hunters: History of the Detroit Tigers Scouting and Development: Del Baker- EP 115

August 19, 2024 • Detroit City of Champions

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Ever wondered how a single year could define a city’s sports legacy? Join us as we revisit the exhilarating year of 1935 when Detroit's Lions, Tigers, and Red Wings each clinched their first championships, earning the city the moniker "City of Champions." We’ll also marvel at the incredible rise of Joe Lewis during this golden era. From historical victories to personal anecdotes, we'll discuss the joy of experiencing live sports, as showcased by a memorable birthday spent at a Tigers game, proving that the love for the game transcends knowledge.

Our narrative takes you through the inspiring story of three Detroit teams achieving their first championships in one breathtaking season. We shine a spotlight on the often overlooked athletes and historical moments that contributed to this spectacular achievement, like Eddie Tolan's influence. As we express our gratitude for your continued support and engagement, we look forward to delving into the Detroit Tigers' storied past, culminating in the celebration of Champions Day on April 18th. And don't miss our thrilling plans to possibly bring the Stanley Cup to mark the 90th anniversary of these remarkable victories.

Imagine gathering all the major sports trophies Detroit has ever won under one roof! We discuss our ambitious plan to do just that, exploring the logistics and challenges of coordinating with museums and securing venues like the Grosse Pointe Yacht Club. From the Harmsworth Trophy to the 1935 Stanley Cup band, we'll cover it all. Along the way, we share unique baseball stories, such as Del Baker’s influence on Schoolboy Rowe and Hank Greenberg’s transformation into a defensive powerhouse. Relive the days when young stars sweated it out in Beaumont, Texas, and discover how their journeys intertwined with the legacy that defines Detroit sports.

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Announcer: 0:03

1935, the Lions win the NFL championship, the Detroit Tigers take the World Series, the Red Wings bring home Lord Stanley's Cup. Joe Lewis begins his rise to world domination. This transforms the Motor City into Detroit City of Champions, into detroit city of champions.

Jamie: Oh, crack of the bat we are. We are in the midst of baseball again we are enjoying baseball.

Jamie: 0:31

We're uh wagering on baseball. We are uh setting our sights on baseball past, present and and future. Uh celebrating 1935. Uh, just a magnificent, magnificent year. I can't tell you how many times I've shared this story in the last three months. It is Detroit, city of Champions. The podcast. I'm Jamie Flanagan, charles Abeson, charles.

Charles: 0:54

Hold on a second. Did you say we're betting on baseball? Well, the collective, but you're on the same page, because if I win my bet, it's going to spill over to everyone around me.

Jamie: 1:03

I've been betting on you for the last four years. Yes, you have man. Yeah, so when I come, up, everybody's coming up.

Charles: 1:09

Everybody I know is coming up. That's where we're at yeah, oakland A's. Just to put it on record, oakland A's to win the division this year. If you want a solid long shot, bet. I know it seems really long of a long shot, but but the a's were the a's, I think are gonna have a chance to do something miraculous yeah, let's just say it like that yeah, and it's all right, so it's been said, it's on record.

Jamie: 1:31

Today it's eight, it's august 1st, right now you put a, you put a bet in on the a's at the the start of the season yes, I had a bet on the a's at the beginning of the year.

Charles: 1:38

I had actually had a bet on the a's last year and you just doubled down, doubled down. I had a bet on the team last year too, and I mentioned on the podcast last year I had a bet on the A's last year.

Jamie: 1:46

The problem was Are you like that guy with the Lions and the Super Bowl tattoo? He updates every year?

Charles: 1:53

Not quite, no, but the thing is everybody knows, I've been talking about this new discovery I have with baseball analytics and the Oakland A's. I put the money on last year. They ended up having an absolutely horrendous record last year, but it doesn't diminish what, um, what the, the, the, what I see in that team because, um, last year I, I can't control what the players, they, what they, which players they use in the field and I can't control the managerial strategy. Or can I control when a team says, oh, we're not even going to try for this year, let's trade away our players, and stuff like that?

Charles: 2:33

So last year the A's they had all these sort of veterans that they signed just to patch the holes on their team and just to have enough guys in the field that were competent to play baseball where the rookies developed. And the rookies that I saw, the young guys I saw, had never really got a chance to play for the whole full year. Yes, so this year they are in this year Now they are starting to come of age and they're all starting to get used to playing in the major leagues and they're starting to. They're going to become the, I believe, the right now they're the best kept secret, but I think that they're going to be like the Cinderella story of the entire season.

Jamie: 3:03

So that's a little bit of baseball present and baseball future. It's just interesting. I mentioned you said what did I do for my birthday?

Jamie: 3:20

I enjoyed a day at the ballpark with my lovely Brad. So, yeah, colleen and I went out to the ballpark. It was funny because we were supposed to go to like a lunch, right and and my stepson colin was going to come in his girlfriend and she ended up having another plan, so it's going to be three of us. And then colin is like we mess him that morning. He's like, oh, he goes. I got some free tiger tickets, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go to a tiger game. And we're like colleen and I have been talking about we like going to go to a tiger game. And we're like Colleen and I had been talking about we like going to the all, the all the teams. We like seeing the lions of red wings, of pistons, we like going to like just for the social aspect of it. And you know, I know nothing about nothing about nothing about sports, but I just love the social aspect.

Jamie: 3:55

I love the city, I love you know. We got to do a game before the season's over and then. So Colin backed out on lunch and it was a gorgeous Sunday. It was a gorgeous, gorgeous day. Actually, it was too bloody hot and uh, I was like, well, let's go to, let's go to a game, yeah, and I punched up the tickets and they were, you know, on sub hub. They were reasonable.

Charles: 4:18

So we in a nice section, section 125,- right behind the visitor dugout 10 rows up behind the visitor's dugout.

Jamie: 4:30

That's a great spot yeah yeah, yeah, a couple of follow-up. That's a great, that's a total follow-up.

Charles: 4:34

Totally yeah.

Jamie: 4:35

Yeah, and then Dr Brad from Animal Talk. He has season tickets. We were in 127. He was in 125, so I don't know, or vice versa, um, but yeah, so he was, he's like right there and he came over and talked to us. That was cool. But then we got to the park and we're like, hey, colin, we decided to go to the game too. What section you're in? He's like 125. We're like shut up.

Charles: 5:00

So are we yeah, yeah, awesome.

Jamie: 5:02

So one of his fraternity brothers does sales there. He does VIP ticket sales, and so he does. You know, it's like he meets and greets and gets people to their suites and gets them their little bags. Yeah, you know, with all the tchotchkes in it.

Charles: 5:19

He gets them in their suites.

Jamie: 5:29

And yeah, you know the people that buy out the sweets, you know, and then you know he schmoozes them to like, tries to sell them season tickets and stuff. So that's kind of his gig, uh. But he has a couple seats at the games and he just rations them out to his fraternity brothers. And this time it was kala's turn and but it was the same section we were in. Uh, it was funny. So I was like dude, we're not stalking you, I swear to God.

Charles: 5:44

The park was full, oh yeah.

Jamie: 5:46

They're not performing well? Yeah, at all, not even close, but the park was full. It was fun and that's what we love. We just love the social aspect of it.

Charles: 5:57

It's the ambiance, baseball ambiance yeah.

Jamie: 5:59

And I actually ended up talking about the's story to two or three people there. Uh, and then you know over, like I said, over the last like three months. I can't even tell you how many times I've told the champion's story. It's addictive, man, it's.

Charles: 6:12

uh, yeah, I mean it's like it's you can't because it's because it's, it's once, it's part of your like understanding of the way things were and currently are, and like that sort of timeline from then till now. It just becomes part of your dialogue, for I mean it's not like you're trying to host a trivia trivia night everywhere you go. You're just once you know, you know and you're just you know you're it's.

Charles: 6:33

It becomes part of your you know, just your daily understanding of the way things are and so it just you can't I mean that's what I mean like it's, you can't not talk about it once, you know once you know, how I mean. It's like the it's the greatest story of all time, greatest sports story of all time. And then she talked about it, yeah.

Jamie: 6:49

And then it was uh, uh, yeah, we were, uh, uh. There's a bunch of new podcasts recording here at the podcast, your voice studios, uh, on the border of Berkeley and Southfield, just uh North of 12 on Greenfield, uh, if you're looking to do a podcast great yeah.

Jamie: 7:05

But uh podcast your voice, but a bunch of new shows that I'm helping. You know, I help people, I coach people through launching their shows. Uh and uh it's, it's. There's like a bunch of dudes and it's like, oh, so what are your podcasts about? You know, it's like, oh, this is a great space, well, thanks, and I go. Well, because I have three shows, I need a place to do them, because my wife kicked me out of the house for podcasting and they're like, oh, what is it about? And it's oh, the City of Champions. And so I've told those guys a story. So I've just been telling the story a lot and I've just I actually it reinvigorated me over the last couple of months in sharing the stories and I got to tell you Eddie Tolan is, without a doubt, one of my favorite stories to recount.

Charles: 7:51

But you saying that reinforces why this story is so important. I think because one of the aspects that makes it so interesting or cool or important, I guess, whatever word you want to pick because for me that when I first started this project, what, what interested me was the idea that the tigers, lions and red wings had won their first championships in the same season. I never knew that and I want to dive in, so that's like the lighthouse beacon yeah that's the.

Charles: 8:17

That's what draws you into. The story is, is this incredible fact that these three teams won in their first, their first championships in the same season is what draws you in. But once you've been drawn in, you realize that there's this entire galaxy of stars.

Charles: 8:30

It's a galaxy of of of stories and people and teams and athletes, all this different stuff. And then, and in your in, you would have never had any reason to go into that world If not for that initial beacon that drew you in. That's what I'm saying, that's what's, that's what's really interesting about it. And, um, you know what book and I got these books here what, like, what reason would I have ever written a book and included? You know, like I mean, you're gonna fill a book with eddie tolan information. I don't know, I mean, but the thing is, who would have bought it? Who's going to buy it? I mean, maybe five copies? I mean, who knows?

Jamie: 9:06

Hardly any.

Charles: 9:07

And so when you include him with the full weight of this season, this, galaxy.

Jamie: 9:13

Yes, I like that galaxy.

Jamie: 9:14

Yeah, he's now part of this larger whole and thus incredibly relevant, and that's what leads to exposure for these people and athletes of this forgotten, of this, of this forgotten era yeah, and I love when, when I share the story, uh, I start talking to people and they, they get a little bit excited about it and I'm like I love when people get excited about it and so I want to say thanks to everybody who's uh excited about it and watch uh, watch these uh on facebook or youtube and then uh listen to the audio podcast, where all podcasts are sold. So, but yeah, do us a favor if you could Put a little thumbs up or even better Share it for us right now.

Charles: 9:54

Even better leave a comment, Leave a comment and collect or like and subscribe.

Jamie: 9:59

Yeah, do all those things, all those podcast things, in all of our guys' places. We'd appreciate that.

Charles: 10:04

Thumbs up share it yeah, we'd appreciate that Thumbs up.

Jamie: 10:05

Share it, yeah, so and then, but we're, we're back to baseball.

Charles: 10:09

Right, we started with yeah, I think we're, we're headed to after this. I think let's we're going to do a long form history of the Tigers. I think it'd be kind of cool, yeah, cause we're already leading up and we're talking stuff. We won't go too super deep into it, um, like ty cobb and like the early, like the 1887 wolverines and that you know, we'll go into that stuff and then we'll move forward and we'll get back.

Jamie: 10:30

we'll kind of come right back to this point, because it's a great point to leave off of after today and I gotta tell you because you're like, oh, I don't know, but champions day is, uh, april 18th, every year, champions day, uh. It was designated in 1936 after the magnificent year, the magnificent nine months of these championships, with a big celebration and a plaque signed by all 48 governors at the time and the president and this big president who had Champions Day. It kind of faded a bit and Mayor Bing love that guy he brought it back. So, april 18th and uh, coming up the next april 18th, uh, in in 2025, here is gonna be the 90th anniversary right, it's gonna be.

Charles: 11:17

You did the math on it, I don't know. Yeah, right, well, 35, 35 to 25. So yeah, 90 makes. Yeah, you're right.

Jamie: 11:24

And so, um, so I thought and I was saying it'd be really cool to get the Stanley cup here and and you and I argue about we've had an argument Um, and you're like, it's not our cup, but the names are on the cup, so anyway. So the ball's in motion, right in motion, right.

Charles: 11:46

requests are being made, uh, because, I want to get all the trophies right. I want to get um that.

Jamie: 11:48

Well, they're the teddy oak trophy in the lions archives the lions the lions trophy from the time the lion yeah, I want to get the lions trophy. That alone I want to get, I want to get all of them right. Uh, the tigers world series trophies. They don't have one from 35, it's only the rings I know, but get the, get the other trophies there. Uh, and the Pistons have a bunch of trophies and so get all of those trophies. If we get the Harmsworth trophy, that's all I need. I don't even need the other ones.

Charles: 12:15

There's a replica, I'm pretty sure, I think it's at the In Belle Isle, not Belle Isle. I believe it's at the Grosse Pointe Yacht Club. At the Grosse Pointe Yacht Club. At the Grosse Pointe Yacht Club.

Jamie: 12:24

I think so yeah, A replica of the Harmsburg?

Jamie: 12:26

I think so yeah, I know there's a replica in the city. I would come out just for that, just for that. So I want to get all these trophies in one room. The Pistons are in. So I got a yes from the Pistons. Yeah, the Pistons said we'll bring them because of the trophies. They've been in the museum, the Pistons trophies because they had a. It's a. The Pistons are celebrating this year as the Pistons a city of champions year. That's their marketing pitch for the year and and so there was a the, the Detroit historical museum, where we normally host the champions day celebration. They, they were. They have a special, a new champion city of champions display. We ought to see if we can.

Charles: 13:08

We ought to see if we should do it at the uh gross point yacht club. Uh, talk to them. They have a bowling alley man. They're they're at sporting club. They might be interested in doing it but here's the thing.

Jamie: 13:18

So, um, the trophies have been there since january and the the actually it just ended, the display just ended and the trophies were leaving now. But, uh, we're talking to the trophy lady and she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, we'll bring them back, for that for sure, that would be great, heck, yeah, uh, so the pistons, she goes as long as they're not committed for something else. So let's work the days and find the date, because we don't have a day for the, because, uh, champions day falls on april 18th is good friday in 2025. And uh, so it's like a couple of the curators at the uh at the museum, are like, well, you know, let's open it up. People are off of work, you know. And then tracy the, the, the leader of it, she's like she's kind of religious, uh, and she's like, well, I'm not gonna be there and I'm like I'm usually like down a good friday if you're not allowed to do anything.

Charles: 14:04

It's not like. It's like the sabbath or anything.

Jamie: 14:06

I don't think I'm catholic myself, but I don't think you're supposed to do anything.

Charles: 14:09

You're not supposed to do anything on good friday nothing.

Jamie: 14:11

No 12 and between 12 and 3 years, not a oh really, no tv, no radio.

Jamie: 14:16

I've actually looked at the rules I guess yeah, yeah, yeah really so yeah, after three o'clock, but I mean it, but it's a day time. But anyway, that Saturday might be the 19th. It might be a good day because it's a holiday weekend. They might have time, I don't know. But they're not locked into a date, or the weekend before or the weekend after, but somewhere around there. My goal is to get all of those trophies in one room at one time.

Charles: 14:41

Well, you've been on this thing, man, so I wouldn't put it past you.

Jamie: 14:43

Jamie, You're hammered, I got I got a connection up at the hockey hall of fame and, from what I understand though, they take they, they, the, the, the cup. You know they'll take, like the old, some of the older bands I don't know older or whatever uh, they take some of the bands off and they flatten them out, uh, and they're on display there with the cup, um, so as the bands go around, so as the years go on. So if that's the case, it's like we get the 35 band, the band with the 35 on it no, that band's on the original cup okay it's on the original cup yeah the one, because there is there's an original original original.

Charles: 15:22

The original cup is just the bowl. That's the thing. The original cup was just a bowl. It was a silver bowl, and then they affixed that to the top of a wood base.

Jamie: 15:40

Yeah, and that was probably about the size of a five-gallon bucket and the new one is more like almost like a garbage can.

Charles: 15:44

Well, the bowl is a punch bowl. I've seen it. It's in the Hockey Hall of Fame. It's got a pedestal and then the bowl is affixed to the top. But that's where the Red Wings that 35 Red Wings is on that one. So I've looked at the names At the museum.

Jamie: 15:59

So we'll try to, we'll get as Authentic as possible. It might be the traveling cup that the players all get to take to their hometown yeah, that you know still be cool as hell. So, whatever one we get. And then you know, all the World Series trophies try to get a 35 ring in there, yeah. And then the Pistons trophies, and then any Lions trophies, I don't know, because it was Teddy Oak trophies when you want from that. Oh yeah, the Lions archives. What do they do with it? They never bring that out.

Charles: 16:31

I know who wants to see that we do. Yeah, they don't even know. They probably have it. It's like the Indiana Jones where they locked at the Ark of the Covenant in that box and they're like what are you going to do with it? And he goes our top people are going to handle it, and then he goes who are, and the guy goes our top people.

Jamie: 16:48

Yeah, there's a custodian pushing it into a million other crates. That's probably. It's like the lions.

Charles: 16:52

They got it in their archives. It's in a stack. They're like what are you talking about now?

Jamie: 17:06

You're like the original championship trophy. I don't know, do we have like? Yes, you do, it's in a box so, but anyway.

Charles: 17:09

So that's. My mission is to get all those trophies in one room at one time.

Jamie: 17:11

Yeah, that's exceptional. I've and and I, you know, I don't know charge people to take a picture with it and donate it to us.

Charles: 17:17

Champions awareness no, I don't know, or the, you know, historical museum, or financially not as well as but no, you know something I don't know, or just I don't know.

Jamie: 17:29

Take pictures, let people take pictures with them well you know. So I, just, I, you know, I, I'm just, I'm, I'm just I just think it would be a really fun thing to do yeah, you're working on, man. I would put a passion to get to something done, man so, but, like I said, we're we're going to the history and we're talking about the foundations of the scoutings? Yeah, we were talking about the, and we said that without Del Baker, 35 would not have happened.

Charles: 17:55

Well, he's just another component. It's tough to say like if this guy wasn't there then it wouldn't happen. You know he was there and he was a major. He was just a component and you know he was there and he was a major, he was as a component and it's.

Charles: 18:05

And I look at all these players and all the stuff we do is like it's like a giant tapestry. You know, like every time that you weave another image or a little story into this giant tapestry of a story, the more that, like when you go and you scan it and you understand it, the more that you understand, like, how amazing it was and just like all these people and all their stories and all these things they come, you know they they're combined total. When you see it all it's like amazing. You know it's just it gets more than full sum total. The story gets more interesting and more amazing the more the bigger that tapestry gets. Is that's, that's the way I see it.

Charles: 18:42

All right, you know, when you first see it it's like three big stories on a giant rug. You know that are both. That's amazing. But the more you weave in, the more it's like that. You know, like they have they call it, the bio tapestry and they. They have that whole thing laid out where there's like this massive story on it, you know, been sewn into a rug, and you're like my God, it's like a book, it's this entire thing. So Del Baker's a huge part of it and I think he's got a really interesting story to tell and he's a perfect. This is where we're going to leave off with the Ivory Hunters, okay, and he's a perfect sort of capstone to it.

Charles: 19:14

We've already gone across all these different scouts and the people that are scouting directors and all these people and I think that Del Baker's a perfect person leave off of because it's a he's trans, he's, he's a transition from the minor leagues to the major leagues, okay, and he's got a, he's got a story that I think that, um, very few minor league I don't think I've ever heard of any minor league uh, manager with the same thing and uh, just to give a little bit of a background, um, I have very little notes on this, but you know, bell baker, he's, he's got all kinds of information on the internet you can search for for more precision details, but, uh, but he was a detroit tiger in early his career, okay, and so he, he, he, but he I'll start even further back because he's got a really interesting childhood too so, his, so he grew up out in oregon.

Charles: 20:02

Um, he grew up out in oregon, he grew up out in Oregon and his and his, his, his family had this huge piece of land, and so his dad made him and his brothers a, a carved a baseball field out of this huge chunk of land for him and his brothers to play on.

Charles: 20:17

It was like he had like four or five brothers. They all played on this field. They like their own, like almost like a whole team of their own guys, and so they they in. According to the story I have in here, they had this, they, they would somebody. Would someone come from like another town and say, hey, we want to play a game in your field?

Jamie: 20:32

we got nine guys we want to play the joneses yeah. We want to play the bakers yeah so we want to play the bakers.

Charles: 20:38

and so he, they had a, they had a hunting horn on their porch, like next to the field or whatever, and they would a hunting horn on their porch, like next to the field or whatever, and they would blow this horn. Yeah, they would blow this hunting horn game on. And it meant game on. So all of their people that were normally they would suit up. You know cause they didn't have a full team. But the guys that would also come and join them to play in that field would come running to go, come play a game of baseball and they would have this that the other team was already on their way, or whatever.

Charles: 21:03

And so that's how he first they had like their own sandlot basically, and they, you know, and then they would they're there, you know, he would play for other little teams nearby or whatever, and somehow or another, his name started to get out there a little bit and eventually, like, he played a little bit in the minor leagues and then he got signed by the Tigers and he played for the Tigers for three years. He was a backup catcher to their is a name that we're going to mention, and when we started doing the long-form history of the Tigers, they had a catcher named Oscar Stenage and Del Baker was a backup to him. So he was a Tiger backup catcher. So he played with Ty Cobb 1914, 1915, 1916.

Charles: 21:41

Del Baker he was on the same team as Ty Cobb, so obviously that's where his initial roots were, with the detroit tigers was was, as is, as his catcher and so, um, he made he obviously made enough of an impression that when the time came for his you know, he went back to the minors, I think he kind of surfed around different teams and different organizations for a little while but eventually, when it was just you know, he became a manager and it was with the tigers that he, uh, that he returned and he, as a minor league, you know as, especially as these, as these, this farm system was, you know, being developed.

Charles: 22:13

He was, he was their guy in beaumont he was there in, and so the in beaumont of like, as we said from the last show, you had bob coleman and you did not have. You know again, we didn't have single A, double A, triple A, they had class A, class B and class C, and so it is actually in reverse order. So it actually ascended to class A. So class A was like one step away from the majors, b was the next step and C was the lowest.

Charles: 22:45

And so to show, you the regard that the Tigers had for him as far as his intelligence and his capability as developing young players and all this. The Tigers had him as their Class A manager at Beaumont, texas, which was their top team, and they had Bob Coleman as their Class B manager. And so I guess we're going to begin with really the first major aspect of his time in Beaumont, which was the 1932 Beaumont Exporters. That was the name of the Tigers Class A team.

Charles: 23:14

And so when you're looking at the Tigers, when you're looking at the ascendancy of the Tigers in 1934, the story that I tell and the story that's told in the books and the story that is like the most sort of the tigers you know in 1934, the story that is that I tell and the story that's told in the books and the story that is like the most sort of you know which is, which is the story, right, is that mickey cochran arrives with the tigers in late 1933. Yeah, and you know they're in when mickey cochran, he's him and goose gosling are the only two really new tigers on this team and then, and mickey's just got, he's like, hey, mickey, how are you gonna, how's the tigers gonna do this year? And he says in spring train we're going world series and they're like what are you talking about?

Charles: 23:50

making you have the same crap team as bucky harris had for the last five years? What makes you think that you're gonna go anywhere with this squad? Just because I mean you're good, we know you're awesome, because I got faith exactly his faith in this. But here's the thing there was a little bit more to it than that. There's a if you plumb down a little deeper. That's where it comes up with the 1932 Beaumont exporters, because the 1932 Beaumont exporters were an absolutely special group of players. Yeah, and we have a team photo here.

Jamie: 24:17

This is that this is a team photo of the 1930.

Charles: 24:20

This is one of my favorite images. I have this hanging on my wall at home. I literally took this picture with my cell phone off of the wall. I this picture I have at home. Yeah, it's not that big, it's like the size of a postcard sure but when I got it back in the day, I saw this on ebay and I'm like this is coming home with me.

Charles: 24:33

There's very few pieces there's very few things I mean there's. I have. I I tell you I have quite a few pieces of like collectible stuff, but sure, this is one of my absolute favorite pieces, because this captures an absolute moment in time, and so you can see at the bottom of the screen all of the different players that were on this team. So if you just skip ahead to the next slide and then we'll jump back to this, Because the next one doesn't really have the names on it- but the next slide, where they're like ISO players.

Charles: 25:06

Plus, I spent like an hour and a half doing this today, but so, if you so, can you blow that back up? Yeah, so what? We're what it shows right here. These are all these players that are ISO in this picture. These are all guys, who, who, who contributed to the 1934 and 35 tigers, all right tigers, all right, fair play.

Jamie: 25:26

So if you're listening to the audio podcast, uh, again, yeah, so it's always, always, almost always, worth a trip to the video podcast because there's some cool visuals that we throw up here. This is an exceptional one to go and yeah, I like what you did with this um highlighting the these are all the guys who are contributors to this, you know, to this um to, yeah, to the 34 and 35 teams, and and these are not just randoms, these are heavy hitters, so you got.

Charles: 25:48

So just to list out a few you got. First of all, in the dead center in the top are Hank Greenberg and Schoolboy Roe. Oh my God, Both of the studs of both years. Those are my boys. The centerpieces of the entire story are both on that team. Hank Greenberg was the 1932, the league they played in was the Texas League.

Charles: 26:09

I want to import these exporters. Yeah, so Hank Greenberg was the MVP of that 1932 Texas League season. Hank Greenberg was and Schoolboy Row was beyond any shadow of a doubt the outstanding pitcher of that year. And so, besides that, you haveete fox on the very far right hand corner. He's their starting right fielder for the tigers in 1934, 35. And all this pete fox is there, and then a bottom left hand corner um sitting on the ground. You have, uh, jojo white. All right, who's another? He's like. He played center field him. He would rotate in and out um with g walker as their starting center fielder. He's a major, he. He's a. He's a major, major factor in this season.

Jamie: 26:48

And so you have.

Charles: 26:49

But then you have just looking at this, where they're sitting at this and the poses there. But you have, but they're like these guys are across the board. So I mean you but you have. You have a couple of different sort of figures. Luke Luke Hamlin's there, who was not the, he didn't start, he didn't have a ton of different starts but he had a couple of really important ones in 1935.

Jamie: 27:09

Newsome, that's a familiar name. Is that a different Newsome? He's not highlighted, I believe it's well.

Charles: 27:14

Yeah, that's no, he was. There's a couple different Newsomes.

Jamie: 27:16

There was a.

Charles: 27:17

Bobo Newsome, who was huge, but this guy was a shortstop. It's the same one, all right. And then you had bill. So you had, uh, joe sullivan, who's up there. He was in the top left hand corner and he had. There was like this one, there was this one, uh, we'll get into him a little more detail, but sure um, you had.

Charles: 27:32

So sullivan was like. There was this one stretch where, like none of their tigers pitchers were pitching particularly well and they brought up joe sullivan and he had like two really good starts to win him a couple games. So they're like they're all because you had flea clifton, who of course, was a guy who was substance. We didn't really get into them too much but, um, but he was a guy because we haven't got to the playoffs yet, but he was a star in the playoffs. When hank greenberg went down in the 1935 world series, it was flea clifton that replaced him at first base. So these guys are all keys and, of course, and sitting there in the in the dress shirt with the tie on is dell baker, dell baker, yes.

Charles: 28:02

And so what's interesting is this 1932 Beaumont Exporters team. They would win, they would just dominate this Texas League season. They had 100 wins in the season and they won the 1932 Texas League Championship. All right. And so they were all.

Jamie: 28:18

These Exporters.

Charles: 28:19

Yes, this was this amazing team, all right, and so I want to read a quote before I go too much further, because I got a couple of really fantastic quotes Right, so the quotes are like one of my favorite things about what there's so many quotes about.

Charles: 28:34

Del Baker, but there's a couple that are just really cool. So first of all I want to start. The first quote I have is for when schoolboy role first arrives in Beaumont. Okay, schoolboy role, when he was going to Beaumont he was actually ticketed to go to class b with Bob Coleman in Evansville and so. But because he was so young, he was a super young guy and there he'd never. I mean, he played a little bit of like barnstorming games but he'd never been in like Oregon, at like class b or class a or whatever. He's brand new, he's raw bone rookie to this, all right. And so he comes to beaumont, just passing through on his way from arkansas to he's going. They sent him to dell baker and beaumont just to have what a you know, to have a look at him, and dell baker's like he's not going to evansville. Yeah, he's standing right here with me. Yeah, he's like I. Just this. This guy is, uh, one of the greatest pitches I've ever seen in my life yeah he's.

Jamie: 29:25

He's not leaving Boma, he's standing right here with me, so I'm going to. This is the quote.

Charles: 29:29

This is the quote for for um, when, for that moment, when, when, uh, when Dell Baker first identifies that this, like this, is school boy, right and so, and then also his influence on schoolboy role and what schoolboy had to learn with Del Baker. Del Baker tells you they say he's amazing, but he's got some weaknesses. And Del Baker identified them and said this is what we're going to work on with you before you go to the majors, which is coming soon. So this is the quote, this is the story, and it comes from the story. It's a little bit of a long quote, but it a really. It's a good one, I think so. This, so this is a bud shaver. This is by detroit times, uh, sports editor. So this is a big dog, right in this. And uh, august 25th 1934, all right, so so here it is, right here.

Charles: 30:20

So schoolboy row was marked for for baseball greatness the day he walked into the ballpark at Beaumont, texas, in the spring of 1932. Dell Baker's heart leaped when he saw him striding along. Dell was manager of the Beaumont Club then here walking toward him was a baseball manager's dream of the perfect pitching physique. If only he could pitch. He could. Baker found that out the moment he crouched behind the plate in his first warm-up of this young giant. That pitching motion was flawless. There was a blurry fuzz in the fastball that zipped across the plate. He had a curve, a real curve one that broke sharply down and away from the batter. But best of all, this amazing youngster had control. Rarest of pitching arts. Baker tried him out With bated breath. He shifted his catching mitt, changing the target for each pitch Each time fastball or curve. The ball thudded into the heart of the mitt without dell moving it. Once the boy threw him up, threw him up a pitch which was hard to catch. The ball seemed to waver in its flight, a blurry ball which lacked direction and substance. Dell knew what that was. He straightened up off his hunches and shook his head knuckler, don't throw that, you don't need it and it will hurt your arm. And it will hurt your arm.

Charles: 31:29

Road, didn't throw it again until last season when bucky harris told him to throw it now and then, just to show batters that he had it. Cochran doesn't let him throw it, so cochran doesn't let him throw it. Bucky harris, let him throw it. And cochran doesn't let him throw it. Baker squatted down his hawks again. Throw me a change of pace a, he coaxed Rose. Brow nodded in perplexity. What's a change of pace? He asked. Baker told him how to start with the same whirling, energetic motion that he would throw a fastball or a curve. Showed him how to pull the string, put the brakes on the pitch before the batter was aware of what was happening. Schoolboy was interested, fascinated. I think I can do that, he announced confidently he could.

Charles: 32:11

After, confidently he could, after a half dozen pitches he had a better change of pace than many veteran pitchers have today. Just as a little aside to change a pace a change up for those that are not, yeah, understand. So a change up is when you it's when you use this you're throwing a fastball and what you do is you're able to you basically use a couple extra fingers on the ball it's the easiest way to do it or use more drag on the ball. So when you throw it, the ball goes slow.

Charles: 32:26

It looks like a fastball but, you've taken like five to ten miles an hour off of the pitch oh, okay so it comes. It's like a slow ball, basically all right.

Charles: 32:34

So you, you have a great fastball in the pit and the batters, you know, just trying to time your fastball, sure, and suddenly the ball comes in way slower and so usually what you see is batters that swing like like in front of the because they or they make crap contact with it, because they're expecting a pitch that have a different velocity. So it's just, it's so, that's so. That's what he's, that's what he's trying to teach school schoolie here. So that was the spring of 1932, my friends, two short years ago to today's school boy has the best change of pace in baseball. That is what has made him row the magnificent, a 22 year old pitcher already on his way to enduring greatness, perhaps to become the greatest pitcher the game has ever is, as ever before, late the game has known. Before he lays his glove, baker thinks that, barring accidents, he can't miss. He thought so then when he finished his first warmup with the boy who had never pitched a professional game in his life. Dell knew that he was looking at the best pitching prospect of his career. That is why Baker did a couple things which were incomprehensible to his associates at the time. Dell was nursing that gleam of hope in secret. Ball players, especially managers in the minor leagues, are jealous of their judgment. Dell did not want to crow about this find and then have to eat his words. Besides, roe was not sent to him as a player. Roe was on the list for Evansville Club, not Beaumont. Eddie Goostree, who also had a vision of greatness when he signed the Raw Bone high school boy on the back of a fire truck, ordained him for Evansville in the 3I League. Rowe was sent to Baker at Beaumont because he was handy and because Baker was the best man to give this untrained kid some pointers before he made his professional debut.

Charles: 34:04

Baker had another idea after he caught row the first time kid he told row earnestly when you want to throw, come to me. I'll always have time to work you out. I don't want anyone else catching you. In that way, baker could personally supervise the unfolding of this pitching genius. Guard against him overworking schoolboy. Schoolboy wanted to throw most of the time and it wasn't good for him. His young strength was unplumbed. Schoolboy didn't know the limits of. Baker. Went to Jack Zellers, tiger coach, who was the overseer of the young sprouts of the Tiger farms of the West. Evansville is not going to get this kid row, announced Baker. He's going to stay right here in Beaumont and pitch for me. He's not ready for a class B league. He's not ready for a class A league, objected Zellers. This kid is right out of high school. He's never pitched a professional game in his life. He he's ready for class a and he won't be here for long. Retorted baker. Leave him here with me. So this. So he was like. So dell baker was like this is my fine now yeah, yeah, you guys sign him, which is awesome, well done yeah

Jamie: 35:01

but from here on out, leave him with me like he's like I'm gonna work this kid, I'm gonna be magic in a minute I'm gonna turn this kid, so this is that's right there.

Charles: 35:10

Dell baker was the guy that supervised the development of schoolboy row yeah, you see, like that's that I would count that right there as a very important contribution to the detroit tigers as a seriousious cog in the wheel of the party train that moved on in.

Charles: 35:30

So it's a huge contribution just right there, yeah, so, anyway. So now I want to zip ahead. There's one more quote I want to read. There's actually one more after this, but there's a good one right here, because we're going to move on from Beaumont here shortly, but I've got this fantastic quote which is actually by Hank Greenberg, and Hank Greenberg and Hank Greenberg. This is a story from his book.

Jamie: 35:50

It's an excerpt from Hank Greenberg the Story of my Life, and this is a story about what it was like in Beaumont, but these exporters are fun.

Charles: 36:01

They love themselves. They're a group of young sprouts down in Texas who are winning championships.

Charles: 36:05

They're coming up together. So what I'm saying is this picture right here, if you're just listening and you're not seeing it, I isolated. There's seven players on this 1932 Beaumont team and we list off already a core group. You had a starting right fielder, a guy who was a platoon center fielder, hank Greenberg, schoolboy row. You had all these guys on the same team with a couple other flea cliff, and of course, he was their utility man through the entire 34 and 35 season. So you had this is a mate.

Charles: 36:36

So basically what this says here is it shows that it wasn't just this miraculous turnaround by mickey cochran right that this was a sustainable development for the tigers, which was these young players that they had in beaumont who just won a championship. Together. We're all coming to the major leagues together and that's where we're going to get to here in a second right. But I want to talk about the final little excerpt here. Is it? You know, I'd love to tell the stories we, you know, does it? You know, this is relevant here, right, and it's a and it's an amazing little story that Hank Greenberg tells and it's relevant now, and so I want to tell it. So I want to read this quote. So it's not as long as the last one, but it's a decent length here. So this is Hank Greenberg's own story.

Charles: 37:20

Beaumont was hot as blazes and we only played day games there. To make matters worse, someone came up with the idea of having red uniforms. So we sweated in these heavy, coarse horse blankets for uniforms while playing in temperatures of 100 degrees. But the joy of playing and feeling that we were getting a little closer to the major leagues was uppermost in our minds. We were a young group. Notice that we were a young group. They were a group of players coming up together.

Charles: 37:47

There was this group of winners and, and you know, legends in their own time that was dominant, grinding it out yeah, dominant guys who knew that they were headed to the majors and this was just a stopping ground penance we got to do to get there, yes, but they but they knew that they were headed, they all they knew they were good yeah and they knew they won this championship.

Charles: 38:06

They're like we were a young group. He's talking about them as this group. So when they got so this is what it's showing is that it was a surprise to everybody else. But with this young group merged with this legendary catcher of mickey cochran, who knew how to take these guys, plus a couple other guys, they had their charlie geringer, who was already there, already a legend in his own time, superstar. But that's why it appeared so abrupt, that's why it appeared so out of nowhere.

Charles: 38:32

But what the reality was, it was a fusing of this amazing 1932 talented group of young minor leaguers with the mickey cochran and, you know, charlie garinger and a couple other guys already there, like tommy bridges, who was going to come into his own. It was the merging of all of this together which did this. It wasn't just out of nowhere, it wasn't just, like you know, mickey Cochran, I think, saw this. But what I'm saying is this is more to that basic premise of a story that was just like a flip that would switch. Suddenly, all these guys who were crap one year suddenly just had the best year of their life.

Charles: 39:06

Yeah, and then it was all over after that. No, this was an organization that was on the rise and that's you know. It leads credence to why frank navel was like everybody's like frank, you just had a heart attack. You're like, the team stinks, your attendance is terrible. You need to sell the team. He's like I'm going all in on mickey cochran because I just need one piece to to bring it together, right.

Jamie: 39:26

They're like what?

Charles: 39:27

are you seeing Frank? He's like my Beaumont team just won the championship with this dominant group of players. If they can somehow do it.

Jamie: 39:37

I got seven of those cats up here. They're up here Ready to swing.

Charles: 39:40

If I can get a veteran up here to bring this group of guys together with some of the other stars. We got Charlie Geringer at second base, the best second baseman in all of baseball, and then we already got another couple pieces like Tommy Bridges and this, and that, if we can get somebody to bring it together for me, then that's all I need and that's why that's what I'm saying is it lends credence to what Frank Navin, and probably Frank Navin alone, and of course, his right-hand man, knew this, but all the other people on the outside are going.

Charles: 40:08

Frank, you just had a heart attack, you're the worst record, you know, like one of the worst teams in baseball. Your attendance is awful, all this, but Frank's like no man. I'm close, I'm so close, we're about to build something here and there's evidence of what his mentality was. We got this group of awesome youngsters right. So, anyways, to continue on. So, but the joy of playing and feeling that we were getting a little closer the major leagues was uppermost in our minds. We were a young group. We had only we had. We had, we had only one or two older fellows to give us a little balance, and most of us were prospects and players assigned by the detroit organization and we're looking forward to climbing up the ladder and making the Major League Club. They were like we're going to the majors. That was their mind.

Charles: 40:49

The Texas League had eight teams Dallas, fort Worth, houston, tyler, longview, shreveport, galveston and Beaumont. Dallas was the only one you could really call a city. Houston wasn't much and Fort Worth was just a cow town. But some of the smaller towns struck it rich with oil and at times the big money literally flowed onto the field. Fans would throw out silver dollars if you made a good player, a good effort, even if you were with the visiting team. Now, four or five dollars was a lot of money at the time. You could eat for five days with five dollars. The players would really scramble around them for the money. It was fun to see. So imagine these. I've heard the story from past stories too. That's why this is the early baseball, when these players would do something great in the field and the fans would throw silver dollars out towards them.

Charles: 41:29

And a silver dollar today is nothing to laugh at, man. A silver dollar today those things are worth. You can't even find those things for less than $12, $13 a piece for the same ones they were throwing to them back in that time. They were walking Liberty silver dollars. No, take that back A silver dollar back then, because those were half dollars. I just mentioned the. Take that back a silver dollar is back then the because those are half dollars. I just mentioned the silver dollars. They had liberty. There are these. They have liberties head on them. They're awesome and you cannot get them today for less than like 28 to 29 dollars a piece, right, right. So that still hasn't because they're made of silver. They have the same spending power as they did back then. That's why he's saying that you can eat for five days with five dollars. So five dollars times, you know, thirty dollars a piece, that's 150 dollars that's that's that's what he's saying.

Charles: 42:11

That's why he's using that particular line, you could eat for five days. Change that five five silver dollars to 150 right now all of a sudden, you understand what he's saying. Yeah, that if people are flinging silver dollars on the field, the players are going after him chasing them down.

Jamie: 42:25

Of course they are, it's 30 bucks, man, that's a big deal so the texas league was an outstanding minor league.

Charles: 42:31

If you were good enough in that league you could step right into the majors. Many players had done it. Dizzy dean was dizzy dean was one, and paul dean, paul derringer and ducky medwick played against me there. It was renowned as the pitchers league and I soon found out why. Any pitcher who could stand up under the heat of cities like Beaumont and Dallas could stand up anywhere. We'd play night games at Galveston and Houston and you can see the heat coming off the field and shimmering waves. Saltwater mosquitoes would arrive and we'd sit and swat them all through the games. In those days the visiting ball club had no showers. We'd have to go back to our hotel to change after the game. If we were in, say, houston, we'd go back to the rice hotel, peel off our red flannel uniforms and hang them up on the tips of those slow, swirling ceiling fans. Those cramped little rooms soon smelled like the locker room or of a gym. We didn't know any better. I guess we were on our way to the majors. That's all we knew, all we cared about.

Charles: 43:22

Schoolboy rose showed up that year, 1932, and what a phenomena he was. He never played in another minor league and there was in, and there he was starting out in class in in class a. He was 22 years old, almost six foot five, over 200 pounds, and one of the proudest human beings who ever came out of waco, texas, or or his other hometown, el dorado, arkansas, I wouldn't say the school by row attained that terrific pride all through his career in baseball. But in that first first year, beaumont, he was nothing but pride in arm. He wasn't satisfied when he won six in a row for us and when his streak got up to around 10 or 12, he was telling everyone that he might never stop, might win every start for the rest of the year. We came into Houston with Schoolboy's streak intact 10 or 12 straight wins for Houston. Schoolboy came in as a star man. For Houston, schoolboy came in as a star man.

Charles: 44:08

We came into Houston with Schoolboy's streak intact and when the last half of the ninth inning came around, the game was tied. Houston gave us, got a man on third with one out and our infield moved in. I made a mental note to cut off the man at the plate, but when a ground ball was hit hard to me, I decided to get the batter first and by the time I threw home the winning run had scored. What? Well? Well, of course it was a bonehead play.

Charles: 44:26

And after I'd made it and ended schoolboy's win streak, my only interest wasn't getting the hell off the field as quickly as possible. As I started across the mound I saw row was still standing there. Come on, schoolboy. I said the ball game's over. He was muttering I ain't leaving, I ain't gonna go. They, they can't beat schoolboy row. And I play like that.

Charles: 44:43

Schoolboy don't lose games like that. Come on, school boy. I said, grabbing him by the arm. But he just stood there and then I could see the tears beginning to side on his face. This game ain't over, he blubbered. It can't be over. I was dying of embarrassment. I felt bad enough blowing the game. And here's our pitcher refusing to leave the mound and crying his head off, while these hometown fans from houston are starting to walk around and stare at school boy. I finally dragged him off the field. Funny thing was a later, a year later in Washington, I hit the long, the longest home run of my career to help school boy win his 16th straight game and tie an American league record. So I figured we're even for what I did to him in Houston.

Jamie: 45:19

So that game where school boy won his own game school boy won his own game.

Charles: 45:24

That that 16th straight win. Schoolboy won his own game with a base hit right, but Greenberg was the one that tied it up before he hit the walk-off for himself. So that's why he's saying I hit the longest home run of my career to help him win that game, to tie the all-time record. So, anyways, this paints this picture again of this team in Beaumont which is essential. This is what's essential to know about this story. Why?

Jamie: 45:50

it's so important to dive in.

Charles: 45:52

These guys, this was this special group of guys. They knew they were stars, they knew they're head of the majors. They had a blast in Beaumont driving in those crappy buses.

Jamie: 46:06

Just the description of those uniforms, because if in museums you see the vintage uniforms, yeah, and they do.

Charles: 46:12

They look like.

Jamie: 46:12

They look like horse blankets, they look terrible they're just awful, awful and just it's like, okay, they were that awful when they were wearing them and they knew they were that awful because they do. They just look thick and heavy and like I can imagine it's been hot as Hades here in Detroit, yeah, and it wasn't like there were just some different species of people that didn't know.

Charles: 46:31

They were crappy at the time.

Jamie: 46:32

That's what I love about Hank Greenberg.

Charles: 46:34

He goes. They were horse blankets. He said coarse horse blankets. So, Hank knew he's like those things were awful and they were different than even the Major League uniforms. You see look kind of rough, but he's comparing them like he didn't mention. Like you know they were like that my whole career. No, he was specifically referring to those ones they had in Beaumont going. Those things were horse blankets, man. So Dell was out there coordinating things yeah so Dell won a championship with his team right.

Jamie: 46:59

For Belmont.

Charles: 47:00

Yes.

Jamie: 47:01

And then where did he go?

Charles: 47:02

So this is where this interesting part of the story, with, with, with, with, with Dell Baker, so 1930,. So we talked about up with these guys. Yeah, so we talked about on the last show how, bob Coleman, he moved up to the tigers at the end of 1932 because the Evansville team had had had folded Right.

Charles: 47:18

So we so this was the or they had. They had relocated, and then they folded. At the end of the disbanded July 15th, so he gets moved up. So at the end of the disbanded July 15th, so he gets moved up. So Bob Coleman goes up to the Tigers in 1932 to finish up, excuse me, the season with them. So what's interesting is, though, is that in 1933, when all these players get brought up to the Tigers, they all get brought up to the Tigers, and so guess who gets promoted with them? Del Baker, right on. Del goes up to the majors with the group.

Jamie: 47:48

This guy is doing something. Let's uh, bring him over here. Let's bring him up with the talent.

Charles: 47:52

Let's bring him over so they promoted the manager with them, right awesome so that's what's that? So anyway, and then bob coleman went from the tigers down to beaumont.

Charles: 48:00

So bob coleman became the bot, the beaumont manager, and then, and then, uh, dell baker became the third base coach for the tigers and so he got promoted with all these guys. So you know, we'll talk a little more about the. You know the individual details of players, but the, the basic concept, is that, um, you know, the thing that sort of to know is that these guys, this is their first year in the major leagues in 1933, right, so the season that is like frank naven's nightmare yeah right, they're terrible.

Charles: 48:28

Bucky harris, is this, this player? He's a former third baseman, bucky harris, and he's just. This is bucky harris's fifth year. The tigers have been terrible for five. For four years he goes into 33. There's not. They're not any better than this. They got their big signing was this? For they had a first baseman that they signed um, named harry dav, who was like sort of like a veteran star, and they signed Harry Davis to a pretty, fairly large salary.

Charles: 48:51

So Hank Greenberg comes up and doesn't get to play. He doesn't get to play because they already they just had this veteran free agent signing, who's a big deal, and they're in. Hank doesn't even get to play. He spends most of the 1933 just at bell aisle trying to stay in shape, playing sandlot ball. And just at bell isle trying to stay in shape playing sandlot ball. And there's a point where he says he's complaining.

Charles: 49:08

He goes into naven's office and he's like man, I want to be able to play. You know I can't. Am I supposed to do anything? Might as well be down in beaumont if I'm not ready. I mean he actually went into his office. I have a quote here about it. We'll get into more of that with hank greenberg when we get to his story, when we do the long form, yeah, with the tigers, but um, what's interesting to know is the contra is that is that hank greenberg there's the tank greenberg had a major deficiency in his game. Yeah, he could hit, and he could hit, and like when he, when he hit the ball, it stayed gone, like I mean, hank greenberg could hit some tape measure shots, but hank greenberg's major problem was his defense.

Charles: 49:42

Oh, he was absolutely awful at defense his defense was terrible and so and so, um this. So I have quick quote, so I think it's the last one I got, but but uh, it shows once again like there is going to come a point where I have my own baseball team and I'm developing players and I'm building players and bringing in this new concept into baseball. And one of the examples that I cite that the one aspect of a player that can be definitively improved without a shadow of a doubt is his ability to play defense, to ability to master a position, and any time that there's ever any dispute on that fact because currently a lot of times in major leagues they'll be like oh, that guy, you know, he's a defensive liability Like a perfect example is this guy named Ben Ogilvie. Ben Ogilvie was a player. He actually was on the Tigers. He got drafted by the Red Sox, played the Tigers and he ended up feeding.

Charles: 50:48

He finally didn't settle into any team until he got to the Brewers and he was this fantastic hitter and they constantly told him like your defense is a liability, your defense liability. And they were telling this all the time and they were like platooning them all the time and like he was, he never, he was never showed, for these major league teams never showed any examples of how good he was, because they're always like, well, let's try to DH him, let's platoon him, he's not a good defender whatever. And so he never really got a chance to demonstrate what he could do. He never got a chance to really even improve or anything like this, because they always were telling him that they typecast him as a defensive liability and once one team typescast you, that, then it basically follows you around the rest of your career, no matter how much you improve. They won't even use their own eyes and see any kind of improvement. But Hank Greenberg demonstrates that it is a fallacy, because he he went from not even be able to catch a pop fly to basically mastering the position, and here's the quote that talks about how he did it and, of course, del baker's influence and on him doing it. So, um, so this this comes from eldon aucker and sleeper cars and flannel uniforms. He says, uh, he says we knew how hard it had been for him to become a great player. Talking about hank greenberg, it didn't come as naturally to him as it did to most of the other stars. He had those big flat feet and was a little clumsy, a bit awkward. Awkward. He had to work and work. Nobody worked harder at becoming a better baseball player than Hank Greenberg.

Charles: 52:10

Hank came up from the minors in 1933 and replaced a fellow by the name of Harry Davis at first base. It says Hank was the most valued player in the Texas league in 1932, but I assure you that it wasn't because of anything he did on the field, meaning on defense. He couldn't catch a pop fly. When he first came up with the Tigers, every time he would try to catch a pop fly he would throw his head back. Those pop flies gave him fits.

Charles: 52:33

Del Baker was the manager of Beaumont when Hank led that team to the Texas League title and he later came to the Tigers as a coach. Hank went to the ballpark at 9 o'clock every morning and Baker hit him pop flies with a fungo bat. I bet Baker hit Hank Greenberg a million pop flies. Hank was determined to perfect the art of catching a pop fly and he worked so hard that he got to the point where he could catch those things in his jockstrap. Hank made himself into probably the best first baseman in the league. He was a big target, so tall with such long arms I still have one of those big long mitts he made for himself, so he had these custom big-ass mitts.

Charles: 53:07

Oh, wow but it says right there. Another aspect Hank, he built himself into the best fielding defensive first baseman in the league, yeah, and he went from not even being able to catch a pop fly, right, right. And Del Baker was there. He said I bet he hit him a million pop flies. I mean mean is that dramatic? I don't know, but he's. But I mean it's not. He's trying to convey an idea. He's like I bet he hit him a million, like he's saying, like it was so many.

Jamie: 53:36

It's in that they were out working and working, every single day every day at 9 am hitting them pop flies every day and so you get.

Charles: 53:43

The question is, how far back. So Eldon Auker is talking about when he first got to the Tigers in 1933 and potentially even 1934 and even beyond, as he kept on working his way. But how far did that go back with Del Baker, with Beaumont?

Jamie: 53:57

Do you think?

Charles: 53:58

that Hank Greenberg can't catch a pop fly in Beaumont, and Del Baker's like that's fine, no worries, right, no worries, and I'm just going to leave him to it. And then when he gets to the tigers, dell suddenly starts working with them. I, just I, I completely, you know, disagree with that, right? So the? So it's obvious that dell baker had to have been working with. Hank is all the way back, you know, with beaumont, you know, and even before you know. So dell was probably working with him for like two years or more, every single day. So, because Al Nauker wasn't with them in Beaumont, right, he wasn't with them Auker was with Bob Coleman in 33 with Beaumont. He was in Beaumont, but he was in 33 the year after this, yeah, and so he didn't see Hank working with Dell in 32. So what I'm saying is that it's almost a matter of fact that if dell's working, like with this, with hank in 33, like that he most certainly was working with hank in 1932.

Charles: 54:54

So the crap version that ochre saw of the hank, greenberg's defense in 33, right when, or 34 because ochre didn't get to the major till 34. So the crap version of defenseender that Ocker saw in 34, right, that was dramatically improved from the years the two years previous.

Jamie: 55:14

So how bad was he when he first started?

Charles: 55:18

Yeah, and how much and how. You know and Del Baker was there to hit those you know to be training schoolboy row and to be developing Hank's defense, two majorly important aspects. Those are the two biggest stars besides Mickey Cochran. Those are the two biggest stars of the Tigers in 34 and 35. And Del has obviously demonstrated his influence on both players as a talent, as a developer of talent and, as we'll see here in a second, the next phase of his actual in-game performance, an incredibly valuable third base coach, because one of the things that he is known for is that he is an elite sign stealer, del Baker standing at third base and he's reading pitchers and tipping off his hitters to what the pitch pitches are going to throw he's in this it was.

Charles: 56:09

So it was so well known, right that he was, that he was this, that there was a pitcher that made a comment because hank greenberg was holding out for a bigger contract. I think it was 1936 and when the when they were um, there was a newspaper reporter who got a quote. He got a quote from, enough, from, I think it was. Uh, it was a Yankee pitcher and he said well, if Hank Greenberg is getting a raise for his new contract, they should give Del Baker one too, because he's the one helping Hank out, tipping him all these pitches and Hank's smoking balls, and Del Baker is feeding him pitches.

Charles: 56:46

Hank doesn't need much help, but if he gets a little help it's it's you know it's it's superstar level. Yeah, so it was a. It was actually one of the after the tigers won the world series. It was. It was an open conversation and it would be a few years. But hank greenberg would eventually shoot it down because the talk was growing. You know it's like anything does how would it? You know it escal and they're like there was rumors of people saying well, the only reason Hank Greenberg is good is because Del Baker is doing that and Hank's like, hold on a second, let's put a nip this in the bud. He actually had to address it and say he gave me a few pitches, sure, but it wasn't like I mean some you know he wasn't the you know, like you know he wasn't there for every single step my entire career.

Charles: 57:25

You know, like I was hitting before, I knew Dell Baker, I was hitting after him and stuff, so but but anyways, it was that, but it was that much of a thing that there was another team pitcher compliment you know, commenting on it. And so imagine now, just to take that, that you know that well-known fact. Now you know that this well-known, this concept into factor, this into Dell baker's story. So what you have we can show there's dell at third, but check out this magic guy we got oh, I like this dell baker had a magic eye man like, look at, that's out of a rotogravure newspaper.

Charles: 57:55

They took a magic eye photo of dell baker at third base calling the different things. Yeah, at third right, and so so he had it. So he was. He was important enough that they got him in a magic eye photo. So anyways, I was so happy when I first saw it I was like I can't believe they have a magic eye of their third base coach yes, but it shows you how big of a deal he was, man, he was huge and so.

Charles: 58:18

But so imagine, now you're a pitcher on another team. You're a pitcher on another team and you got Dell Baker standing over there at third base who is just studying you.

Jamie: 58:30

Right.

Charles: 58:30

Cause, when you're stealing, when you say stealing signs or reading a picture, what you're looking for is the pitcher or the catcher or whatever. Whatever you can read, you're looking for something that, where he puts his foot, where he puts his hand, what his fingers look like.

Jamie: 58:45

Yeah, it's, it's uh to tip away what he's about to do, right, and so you just have, so you tell your boy and yeah.

Charles: 58:52

So even if so, even if he's not reading anything, you look over to third base and you see dell just staring at you just like what? I'm not, I don't see anything, you're fine, you know.

Jamie: 59:03

I don't see anything Go ahead. Throw that ball, yeah, throw that. Throw the ball, throw that, give it your best shot.

Charles: 59:08

So what I'm saying is that that is a weapon. When every single team you face, their pitcher is looking over at third and they're seeing your guy going. Come on, hank, you can do it. You know you got this. Hit this guy. You don't mean, that's a, that's a deke. That's a deke you can pull out of your bag too, and be like hey hank, do you know? Hey, hank, and you're like doing some hand signal.

Charles: 59:30

You might not even know the pitcher's sign, but you're yes, exactly that's what I'm saying that's a weapon, that's a, that is a, that is a factor in these games, and so you're getting their noodle, yes and so that's dell.

Charles: 59:44

So this is this guy man, dell. So we love dell, so he's. So, anyways, um, uh, so that, yeah, so this is that, this is the role, this is the aspect of, you know, of dell baker. And, like I say so, at the end of 1933, when dell first comes up with the tigers, yeah, so he's bucky harris's base coach. And then when so Bucky Harris resigns before the season is over because he's like, this is just a, it's a disaster.

Charles: 1:00:10

Like these guys they're not playing. You know, when they first these all these young guys, they're not playing. They're not playing. Well, they're all new to the majors and they didn't fuse like they did in 32 under Bucky or under, I mean, under Del Baker. And so you know, hank's not even playing. How are they supposed to come together Like their guys aren't even playing? Schoolboy is, you know, pitching in small starts or whatever. They didn't have that same moxie that they did when they came up through Beaumont. And so that's why, when Frank Navin is watching this happen going, this is my super squad, my super kids coming up and they're not doing the damage I thought they're going to do. We need something to bring it together right, and that's when he goes out and gets Mickey Cochran.

Charles: 1:00:51

But what's so interesting is that usually in baseball, when there's a new manager coming in, he brings his own squad of people, he brings his own coaches, he brings his own talent guys or whatever, because it's his name on the line.

Charles: 1:01:08

He wants to make sure he's got his people there he thinks he knows best and but in this case, dell, who was there, who you know, dell finishes up the year, is the manager of the tigers because bucky harrison resigned. So dell this is, this is so. 1933 was the first he was. This was the first year that dell baker was an actual manager of a major league team and he finished off the year 1933 as the manager. Now, when mickey comes on as a player manager, what's interesting is is that you would think that there'd be this like power, you know, like you're coming in as a new manager team in the most recent manager of the team, you know. You think that it's like okay, you know you go, you know go away you know, go back to the minors or go anywhere, but here, because this is my team.

Charles: 1:01:46

Now I'm the manager, but that's not what happened. Mickey kept him on as the third base coach, recognizing his value to the team, potentially recognizing the idea and I think there's an article that speaks to this concept that Dell was the guy that could help Mickey extract the best out of these young players?

Jamie: 1:02:07

Well, because when you're a player, manager you've got to play, you've got to have your head in the game. So having a guy like Dell on the side, absolutely.

Charles: 1:02:17

Yeah. So there's a bunch of factors that comes in with that and especially, I think is a big one, is that it wasn't just Mickey that maximize the value of these players that you have that you had. 1934 is the first year that Hank Greenberg is a full-time player. It's the first year that these youngsters are going out there as a group and knowing that they're all starters, that school boys are anchoring the rotation now that these guys are all, so that so it was basically Beaumont.

Charles: 1:02:42

That Beaumont team is now merge, is now fusing with the great, one of the greatest catchers who's ever played the game in a, in a veteran outfielder, like schoolboy or like a goose Gosling, and like, and with with Tommy bridges, who's already there, and with the greatest second basement of his era, you know, charlie Geringer. They're, they're fusing with that talent. It was Mickey that brought this group together. So with the story of Del Baker, with the story of this Beaumont team from 1932, I think it paints a far better, you see what this 1934-35 Tiger team was, far better when this is factored into the story, than just Mickeykey cochran got there and like, oh my god, mickey changed everything it was so great, you see that there are pieces were there.

Charles: 1:03:31

That mickey was the few, the person that fused them together, the veterans with these, with this exceptional group of young players. It was mickey that brought it all together. And so it's not to take anything, you know. It says say well, now you know the full thing. It wasn't just Mickey that just snapped his fingers and made it happen. The pieces were there, but it also. But it shows the magic of Mickey and even, I think, even better, because it says he sees these guys. And so when Mickey made his statement in spring training in 1934, series, it wasn't just the, the rantings of a, of a madman that was just so confident in his own ability. That's not it.

Charles: 1:04:06

No, he saw that he had the pieces, he saw that he had this exceptional team this group of guys that if he could bring them together, they had just as good of a chance as anybody, and that's what the strategy, his strategy was in 34 and again, of course, in 35 was to fuse this excellent, this outstanding group of young players together with these core guys. And that's why because he recognized that it makes absolutely every sense in the world why you would want dell baker to stay and not say you know? What you're. This is a power struggle.

Charles: 1:04:38

My team, I don't want you out of here, right he's like I want you here to help you know to take grounders from hang, to take pop flies from Hank. You maximize their talent in Beaumont in 1932, and I want you here to maximize their talent with me in 1934. That's how it was, and so that's what I'm saying. So, yeah, to try to tell the story separate of Del Baker, I think, is to certainly not understand the full picture of what this Tiger team was in 1934.

Jamie: 1:05:07

Del Baker, it's an important cog in the machine.

Charles: 1:05:14

Another part of the tapestry being woven to show this story in its full glory, in its full complexity.

Jamie: 1:05:22

But for the whole champions, uh story, for the three teams, um, you know the the tigers, then the lions and then the red wings. Uh, so really, the tigers blazed the trail absolutely and then the lions came in in support of it, because it was like oh hey, we could use a football team to sell.

Charles: 1:05:41

Some lions were the pivot, and then the red wings. Really holy crap we were the biggest beneficiaries. We've got to perform. All eyes were on them because the story was big. Now, you had Joe Lewis, you had the Tigers, you had the Lions who just won the championship, which was like a bonus. And now all of a sudden, all eyes are on the Red Wings, because the Red Wings moved into first place on the day the lions won their first championship.

Charles: 1:06:02

So now it's like any with a pair of eyes and I even have it on the first book. In the first book I have the cover of each newspaper when the team won their championship. So you have the and bull print the tigers, tigers win, tigers win world series. And in the second paper that it wasn't even that big of a headline with the lions. Yeah, the lions just have a little byline. It just says it says lions win. Title on speed and better judgment.

Jamie: 1:06:25

It's a little byline it's not that big, but they're on the cover yeah, you know they're like, we're on the cover, we want a championship.

Charles: 1:06:31

You know you gotta, they got. We got a front page. I don't even think that was from the front page of the main newsroom, I think it was just the sports section like we made this front page of the sports section.

Charles: 1:06:42

They're all happy, but what's interesting is on that Lions paper. That's where you really see it as marginalized as they were. What's amazing about that paper, which is the second newspaper, like if you're looking at the first book it has the first paper, says Tigers win world title. And then the second newspaper. It just says it's kind of right in the middle of the thing with the Lions player in the center. It says Lions win tight on speed and better judgment. But if you look below that there's a picture of joe lewis and on that day, december 15th 1935, that the lions, you know uh, win the championship.

Charles: 1:07:17

They have a picture of joseph, says joe lewis wins ap award for most outstanding athlete of the year and then also on that same page, it said well, there's a red wing section that says red wings move into first place. Okay, and so that day was as majorly significant.

Jamie: 1:07:33

That's a pivotal day.

Charles: 1:07:34

That's what I call the lions the pivot, because because anyone with a pair of eyes, they all knew the Tigers won the world series. Yeah, they all knew Joe, joe tigers won the world series. Yeah, they all knew joe. Joe was the biggest star in the world. And then you have the lions win, and then, with a pair of eyes, you're going hold on a second. Let me do the math of my hands here. You got tigers, joe lewis, lions win the title and the red wings are in first place.

Charles: 1:07:54

That's what brought. That's what, all of a sudden, the whole new story was born on that day, which was can the red wings do it too? Yeah, and that. And so now the whole city is looking at the Red Wings, who are not just pursuing some abstract Canadian trophy, they're in pursuit of the larger glory of the city. And that's what brought the Detroit fans to the Red Wings in droves for the first time ever. And under that spotlight they won their first championship with all eyes on them. That's what the spectacular exclamation point of the story. And then, of course, their minor league team won their championship the next day after that.

Jamie: 1:08:34

I just love how all the pieces come together, and no one's investigated this before. No one has ever pieced this together in this way, I'm glad we're we're stitching this, this quilt, together.

Charles: 1:08:50

It's just a little postscript on Dell Baker. Yeah, a couple of little interesting little tidbits here. So a postscript on him because the way that he had the rest of his career as a manager went kind of like in 33, where he patched where he, where he managed at the end of the year for dell but for uh, for bucky harris, dell was like sort of a fill-in guy right. So like mickey continued to manage, he continued like, but he got at one point he had a, like a nervous breakdown and then, and then he would like another year, he got hit in the head with a pitch which basically ruined his career.

Charles: 1:09:20

So dell was always the guy that stepped in as their tiger manager whenever there was an issue or a, you know, mickey went down or whatever it was. And then he became their full-time manager for a few years. He took him to the 1940 world series, okay, and then they lost, the tigers lost in seven games to the reds and so. But you know, right before world war ii, but he had in there and I think he had like, I think he had like five games with b at some point, like later, like in the 1960s or something.

Charles: 1:09:45

But anyways, but over the court. But he was in baseball as a player or a manager for 50 years.

Jamie: 1:09:51

Whoa Del was Okay.

Charles: 1:09:53

And so, but anyways, so in that sort of patchwork, managerial career, at least with the major leagues. His major league record this is I couldn't believe this, I thought this was amazing His eight-year career as a managerial career with the Tigers, so he managed right around 780 games. So his career record is 417 wins and 355 losses. So his winning percentage was 54%, which in managerial terms is is very good. Anything above 500 is really good, yeah. And so just to put it in comparison, sparky anderson, who had a 17 year career as a tigers manager obviously you know twice as many, uh years as a as the manager of the tigers, but his winning percentage was 516 so dell baker had a higher winning percentage than Sparky Anderson as a manager.

Jamie: 1:10:46

Well, there you go On off here with the Tigers.

Charles: 1:10:49

So just to put that in perspective, so this is a guy who you know absolutely essential for the 34, 35 Tigers and you know you would start associating, you know, would they have won the year without it? That's a debate that could be had, you know you could have that debate to say year without it?

Charles: 1:11:04

that's a debate that that could be had, you know. You could have that debate to say would would the tigers have been able to win the world series without dell? Baker, who's to say? But the thing about it is we never have to ask that question because dell was there there it is.

Jamie: 1:11:14

Yep, I just. I love this story better all the time man all right, more to it, we're gonna uh, deeper dives into the tigers as we move forward and deeper dives into more pieces of this story.

Charles: 1:11:27

I think, like I say, I think we're going to go into a deep, like a long form version of the Tigers for the beginning of the next show. So if you're listening, you want to.

Jamie: 1:11:34

Whatever you want to tell me, man, I love the story.

Charles: 1:11:36

Well, we're going to make you a Tiger expert on Tiger history because Tiger's got a fascinating story their history. We're not going to go. We're going to do a long-form history but I don't think we're going to spend every week. Ty Cobb represents a major component. I don't think we're going to spend all day, like six months, talking about Ty Cobb. He merits that amount of time. But we're going to do a nice long stretch of Tiger history.

Jamie: 1:12:05

I think it'll be kind of a big deal for it lots more to come like subscribe, leave a comment to all those podcast things and all the podcast places. Please, uh truly appreciate everybody who's uh rolled through us uh for this long uh on all these episodes. So thank you. Thank you, charles, thank you my pleasure. Jamie, thank you for always putting this thing together man, uh, detroit city of championscom, and then facebook, youtube, just google detroit city champions, we're there we're there for you.

Charles: 1:12:30

Yeah, you have any questions, write in. We all would love to talk about yep, yep.

Jamie: 1:12:34

We'd love to hear people. We'll do it all again very, very soon. It's detroit city champions podcast.

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