Ivory Hunters: History of the Detroit Tigers Scouting & Development Pt 5: Bob Coleman Ep 114

Step into the golden era of Detroit sports with us as Jamie Flanagan and Charles Avison unveil the meticulous research and dedication that brought the legendary athletes of 1935 back to life. Journey through time as Charles recounts his thrilling discoveries of rare memorabilia and the painstaking effort he put into piecing together old newspapers, matchbooks, and game programs. You'll be captivated by the stories of fan interactions and the undervaluation of treasured sports artifacts.

In this episode, we delve into Bob Coleman’s crucial role in the Detroit Tigers' minor league system. Despite initial skepticism, our exhaustive research uncovers Coleman's significant contributions, from his management of the Evansville Hubs to his lifelong dedication to minor league baseball, which earned him the all-time record for minor league wins. We also spotlight the pivotal decisions and figures like Jack Zeller and Del Baker, who shaped the Tigers’ success in the early 1930s, illustrating how a deep understanding of a franchise's history can guide its future triumphs.

We wrap things up with a nostalgic look at the legacy of Tiger Stadium, the cultural impact of the old English D, and amusing anecdotes about fans bringing actual geese to games. From personal stories about tattoos symbolizing Detroit pride to the transformation of the old Tiger Stadium, this episode is a heartfelt tribute to the vibrant fan culture and historical significance that define Detroit's sports legacy. Join us in appreciating the past and drawing inspiration for the future as we celebrate the stories and fans that make Detroit sports legendary.

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Transcript

Announcer: 0:00

1935. The lions win the nfl championship, the detroit tigers take the world series, the red wings bring home lord stanley's cup. Joe lewis begins his rise to world domination. This transforms the motor city into detroit city of champions.

Jamie: Oh, never get sick of hearing that crack of the bat.

Charles: 0:26

It's becoming like a part of the show. I mean, it's like our signature moment, Besides the Death Star theme tune, which is pretty awesome too.

Jamie: 0:35

It is Detroit City of Champions. The podcast, I'm Jamie Flanagan, Charles Avison. Like, subscribe, leave a comment.

Charles: 0:41

I always forget to say that I forget to say it too. We're so excited to get into the content. Right, we didn't talk about it.

Jamie: 0:46

You know, but I just thanks to everybody. We had actually in the last like couple weeks had a few comments on the thing. It's like people are like oh, I got like a collection of magazines that like goes deep into this, and it was about some Was it Red Wings? Yeah, yeah, and it was like I'm and we're like I didn't even know there was a Sports Illustrated article about him.

Jamie: 1:08

It's like holy cow, I never. I never saw it. I just want to read that and send it over. Yeah, I just want to read the article.

Charles: 1:13

I want to yeah, I wanted to see what it is. Well, I'm a junk of putting the book together kind of took me back in time, yeah, and when I was doing these books, like literally all I was doing was like looking, I was looking for um game programs, match books. I mean, I told her, I said you know what it's like whenever you write a like a report on a subject. There's like every subject, almost every single subject ever has been covered by a book of some nature I mean you at least have some kind of a boundaries by some other book that's written.

Charles: 1:45

So if you're looking for information, you're like, oh, I gotta go find this book. Well, in the case of this subject, there was no books no, this there was nothing on the internet where no man is.

Jamie: 1:55

It's literally there has not been any. You're all star trek in this. That's what it was. That's, I felt like I was captain kirk yo, or at least it's like sidekick or something and I was like, scotty, we're gonna find this, but they beat me up.

Charles: 2:06

We gotta let people know yeah, exactly so I so that. So that was so, like that's all it was was for like a year and a half, especially when it came to the players. All I did was, every single day, go to the library every day and just read news. I just started from like from like a year before 1930, like basically late 1933, and then I went all the way through 1936, so it was like that bracket of time and I just read every day sports section and I just printed every time I came across anybody or anything that had anything to do with the story and I just printed, printed, printed. And like I would look for matchbooks, I would look for article like game programs, I look, look for anything like every single day was part of my research routine. Every single day to look for anything on eBay of that was related to this subject.

Jamie: 2:54

You. You were a Detroit tiger and a city of champions. Archaeologist. That's what you were like brushing the dust off of things very slowly and and and uncovering things, yeah, whether it was on a scrap, but whether the thing is.

Charles: 3:09

I was acquiring matchbooks, I was acquiring everything I could, but I was just acquiring it for the information, yeah, so a lot of times you're running up against collectors who are buying the stuff to hang on a frame on their wall so you're having to bid up to like no, but there's a story inside of that matchbook, yeah, that I just want to read and share with people.

Charles: 3:25

Exactly so a lot of times I would acquire some of this super expensive memorabilia scan it, you know, and then just to add it to my collection, and then sell it back on eBay, you know. And so that was like that was because I was just after the information.

Jamie: 3:38

You're a poor young college student. That's all you are Well well, this was after.

Charles: 3:41

This was after when I was.

Jamie: 3:42

This is that you're a broke author.

Charles: 3:43

Yeah, even, probably even worse and so that's what I mean so I do, it'll apply.

Jamie: 3:48

You know you can't get grants at that point, yeah yeah, so it was just purely just.

Charles: 3:52

It was just piece by piece, and I, and every time I came across a player, if there was an article where there's like talking about three or four different players, I would make four copies of it, and then I would. I had a, I had a that I would just every time I came across a player's name, I would sort that whatever scrap of information into that player's file.

Charles: 4:08

And so I had like I when it was done, I had like five bins of folders and because I would make multiple copies of the ones that were like mentioned each player, so that when the time came to write their stories, I had every single scrap of information about that player, that I had this scraped together and their photos and everything in their folder, and that's why I was. It was super easy to cross-reference different facts and say, well, this over here is saying this, this over here is saying that, what's the truth of the matter? And try to come to that.

Jamie: 4:33

you know thing so did you do that, like with the dewey decimal system?

Charles: 4:37

well, I'm very familiar with the dewey decimal system.

Jamie: 4:40

Kids today aren't no well. Have you ever seen the? Have you ever seen?

Charles: 4:43

uhf with uh conan, the librarian I love the dewey desmos well, he says that in the movie he goes, that a kid goes. Excuse me, sir, do you know where this book is? And it's got conan, but it's like it's a, it's a, uh, it's a weird al yankovic parody, right? So he's got, it's got conan, he's sharing with the sword and he's like he goes and he grabs the kid and he lifts him up by one hand. He's like don't you know you're doing this?

Charles: 5:05

it's like I'm sorry, but yes, I got very familiar with that long ago and uh, but, uh, but anyways what the reason I tell that story is because I'm like that's what a junkie I am after this kind of information. So he's, you know, the gentleman's mentioned us messages, but he's got a sports illustrated article that's mentioned in wally kill ray from 1936.

Jamie: 5:25

I'm like I've never knew that article existed. Well, that's. That's been one of the. The funnest things about doing this project with you is that, like cousins and relatives and grandsons and nieces and nephews and families and in-laws of people that are involved with the story, because many of the people, almost all of the people, I don't I don't know if there's any champions left- I don't know. Well, there's relatives all over the place, but the relatives are chiming in I'm friends with my facebook and I, I'd love that they chime in and they say oh, my goodness, no one is sharing this story.

Jamie: 5:56

Yeah, thank you guys for sharing this story.

Charles: 5:59

Um, and so we're ahead of the curve because one of these days it's gonna come, come back, and people are going to be like this is the show and this is the books and all that that brought it back.

Jamie: 6:07

Absolutely, absolutely. Our honor to be, to be part of this, yeah.

Charles: 6:12

And there's a lady. Today I talked to a lady. I was telling about my organizational plan for the books she actually has assigned. The reason why the conversation came up is we have a. She has a signed. Reason why the conversation came up is we have a. She has a signed um, uh um, normie smith the goalie, the red wings. She has a signed normie smith hockey glove. Oh geez, yes. And she's like she's like this has got to be worth a lot of money. You know, because she knows who normie smith is. You know that's what kind of. That's what really got us talking. Yeah, and now, and she's.

Charles: 6:42

I was like look, I go, I go to me. It's priceless. I mean, it's like the most valuable thing you can find. I go. But to the rest of the 99 of detroit fans they have no idea of this story and normie smith is just a footnote and they're in a, in a maybe it may be a footnote that gets credit for the marathon game that you know it's not. I mean, they would, they're not paying anything for that. I was like I got the most valuable newspaper, in my opinion, in all of the history of sports, which is one of those city of champions newspapers where it has the spread of all the teams. I got that for $10. $10, and it's mint condition. In my opinion, it's the most valuable sports section, the most valuable issue of any sports section ever made. It is Well, yeah, it's got the city of champions laid out oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is.

Jamie: 7:29

That's the, the cover with the original in mint condition I got it for 10 bucks.

Charles: 7:35

My max bid was 999.99 and just I got it for 10. I got it for 9.99. Oh wow, right, no bidders, I got it for 10 bucks.

Jamie: 7:44

And that's just what breaks your heart. I wish you had paid $999. I'm glad you only had to pay $9, but I wish you but people. And that because time and again we say that it's such an underrated story, such an underappreciated story. And that's just why we do it, because we're having fun, we like to hang out yeah and then, you know, talk about this, and every time we get together, something new unfolds.

Jamie: 8:13

We got some stuff we'll talk about after we get to our topic today, because we're talking about scouting, yeah, and the tigers and and the the birth of the scouting system in the birth of the way the tigers were built farm and the birth of the way that the Tigers were built yeah, for Major League Baseball. And the Tigers, yeah, and Bob Bob Coleman.

Charles: 8:31

Goldman, goldman, goldman.

Jamie: 8:33

Goldman Goldman. Come on, goldman Goldman, you're screwing with me. I am no, it's the birdcage.

Charles: 8:40

Oh okay, no, no, oh, okay, no, no. It's like the the the movie the birdcage.

Jamie: 8:47

Oh okay, no, I've seen it. Robin williams, I forgot that scene that they their. Their name is coleman, but they don't want to sound too jewish oh, I got it now.

Charles: 8:51

I remember what you're talking about.

Jamie: 8:53

They're like oh, we don't know where we live until somebody pronounces our name.

Charles: 8:56

Oh, yeah, I know, I remember that, all right, anyway but is bob coleman? Yes, go, I'm coleman no, you got it right the first time. Let's stick with that. Let's stick with that. I can't help myself it's a reflex well, let's you it's comedy comedy reflex. You got the first. You got it right the first time so we're talking about bob today and what's interesting.

Charles: 9:17

Along the same lines we just said about finding new stuff and whatever is. When I originally wrote this section on bob coleman in this book, at the time that I wrote it, I mean I recognized that he was like an important aspect of the Tigers minor league development system. I mean, I, he was, you know, I could you know you just from the basic D, you know basic data, you can see, you know just the basic information that I gleaned. His name had come up numerous times, you know, over the course of just in passing, reference to such and such yes and so you could tell that he had an influence. So I include him in the book and at the time I wrote him into the book. It's like, um, you know, you're just, you're you just you're just really just putting him in there because you're just like, I know he's important but I don't know exactly how he fits with everything else going around. I, I know he's a minor league manager.

Charles: 10:05

So it's right and here's this, and he's got a bunch of statistics which are great, but I didn't really know at the time how exactly the machine clicked with his you know his role in the machine.

Jamie: 10:14

So so now, this is interesting. When did, what was the year you started? Yes, you did your paper in college. Well, when did you start in earnest work on this book? What was the year this uh?

Charles: 10:25

work began on this book.

Jamie: 10:26

Uh and the players about 2010 all right, so 2010, we're here at uh 2014, when the book is published.

Charles: 10:33

Yeah, uh, 2020, 24, holy crap yeah, but 2014 is when this book was, so it's been and it's been 10 years since the book has been published. Information is has progressed and changed exponentially well, the thing about the information, especially with baseball, right, especially with baseball, and this is why I say I talk about the other base it's great.

Jamie: 10:54

I love as we're doing this we're finding more and more stuff.

Charles: 10:56

This stuff comes online. I mean, you're just looking at the like holy crap, where was this?

Jamie: 10:59

just looking at this when I was like taking through the, we're looking at the page that Chris built. You print out one of those micro-feesh and it's soaking wet. When you pull it out of the thing, it's a sopping, soaking wet mess that you don't want to smudge when you're printing those micro-feeshes out of the basement of Wayne State.

Charles: 11:18

Well, when I was doing it originally, it was such a huge deal to do. When I was a kid, I had to copy. It was a, it was.

Jamie: 11:21

It was such a huge deal to do when I was a kid film, and now I had to copy it with a quill.

Charles: 11:26

God yeah, no, what I was doing? Quarters in the machine. Now it's digital, so yeah, it's all, everything.

Jamie: 11:31

All this is like digital and more and more is getting digitized and as we do this story, there's so much more that's unfolding. What's I'm trying to say, beyond the books, which is fun, yes, so it is it is fun.

Charles: 11:45

It's fun for me too, because now, like just going over today and that's from saying the thing about the thing about baseball and baseball analytics and statistics and all this is that it's you know, is that the the way that baseball information is able to be processed now.

Charles: 11:59

It's so much more light years ahead of where anything was for the last, even like five years ago, right, because, like now, you can just click on that, you can break down all kinds of data and information very quickly and it's, you know it's, and so you can you have access to, you know. In this case, it really helped me put together the pieces of this, of this, of his role, and it's a significant one, like I say.

Jamie: 12:21

I knew he was important when I put him in the book, but now it dawns like a light bulb moment today. So what do we need to know about Bob?

Charles: 12:29

Coleman. So the thing to understand about again, we are talking about the birth of the Detroit Tigers farm system here. This is the era. A lot of times we're so conditioned to accept the way that the baseball like the Tigers have Toledo Mudhens, the baseball like the tigers have toledo mudhands.

Jamie: 12:46

The eerie, you know they have a team in the area. I pray to christmas. Somebody from the tigers is listening, but all right.

Charles: 12:52

Yeah, but the thing is that we should know this well, yeah, but they're, we're so conditioned to like just thinking that the way that the tigers system operates today, where there's like the toledo mudhands of their triple a team, that you know they have a, they have the eerie team you know for double a, and it just you have, like you know, you have like this, this rigid, you know, uh, sanitized system that just exists today and like it's always existed, right, it's just like we just kind of tend to it, doesn't you know it? And to fill in the gaps of errors that we don't understand, we just kind of assume that that's the way it was right. That's me, I'm speaking for myself, I'm not trying to assume everybody else, but I have a feeling that people are in that same mindset, and so what you're talking about here again is the genesis. This is the time when things are, um, just being born and developed, and that's why I think it's so important, you know, so interesting here.

Charles: 13:39

So, bob coleman, um, what's? I have idea this is the gap in the story I don't understand. I don't know where or why he was connected to the like he first became connected with the Tigers, but some because he started off as a catcher. He was a minor league catcher in the early part of the 1900s. So he was a catcher. He was basically a career minor leaguer. He had 119 games in the major leagues but he was like he just like what. Just to get a picture about. We have a picture of him actually, but to get a sort of mental picture of what of who bob coleman was yeah, this guy is the prototypical like manager out of a movie.

Charles: 14:16

Okay, he's this guy that you would see in any like he's this he is this like, like former, like tough as nails catcher, who was never really a big major league player, right, right, but he was. But just play like. He was a minor league and major league manager for decades. Like you're talking 35, I think it was 35 years. He was a I got it right here 38 years as a minor, as a manager.

Charles: 14:44

Uh, four of those years were in the major leagues, but and but he was, he was not in the major leagues, it's like, because he was like some big oh where he's a three years in the major league. So 35 years in the minors, three years in the majors. During world war ii they only brought him up to the major leagues because they they just needed a guy to fill in a gap for boston, the boston nationals. Um, but this guy is like your, like lifetime minor league manager, just, but like, say, toughest nails guy. When he retired at the end of when his last year was 19, he coached, he was a manager from 1919 through 1957, 1919 to 1957 and after he left in 1957, he was an all-time leader in minor league wins, that's amazing yes.

Charles: 15:31

It's all-time, all-time minor league winningest manager of all time you got to applaud that and just hope for the best. Yes.

Jamie: 15:40

If I could have three-quarters of that, I'd be happy.

Charles: 15:42

So imagine this guy's coaching you in like 1952 or something, right your?

Jamie: 15:47

career ends, your college and high school football baseball. You come back and you get back in the middle. Holy crap, he's still here.

Charles: 15:56

But like you're, imagine you're some 18 year old kid in baseball. You know that's like what that's getting coached by him. This guy's been coaching already for like 32 years and he had like a 10-year minor league career as a player. This guy is your old like salt dog. You know like this guy is just sweating baseball out of his pores. You know what I mean. Like you would have to be to see, to like sit there for 100 or so games every year for that duration of time, to see the amount and names and players that have come through from 1919 through 1957. I mean, you're taking it all the way into like the post-World War II.

Jamie: 16:34

It changes immensely.

Charles: 16:35

Immensely. But this guy saw it all Okay and so even in his day, like even when he was so know, so it. So he'd already been coaching for uh from 1919 through 1927. Uh, when he hooks up with the tigers, so he's uh. So he'd been coaching the minor leagues for eight years. He's already a decade into his mind. He's already a veteran manager by the time the tigers signed him up in 20, 1928.

Charles: 17:00

And so what's interesting is and I did not know, this is a part I did not know, yeah, is that? So I don't. But I don't know who he connected with because he, when he was this guy, was in with the tigers, okay, the tie. So, and I'll give you an example, in 1928 he so the team that was really the focus here um, the tigers had a again, this is how the, the minor league system was being born. So the tigers had two. They had a couple other smaller farm teams that they were affiliated with, like sort of like entry-level teams, but the two, but this, but 1928 is when they bought there, there was like back then it wasn't triple a and double a for, like, the highest level of minors, you had class a and you had class b. Those were the two highest levels, they called them, and so the tigers class b team was the evansville hubs. All right, and so the Evansville hubs were their class B team. Okay.

Charles: 17:46

So like your second tier down from the, from the highest level, and so so Bob Coleman bought that team for the tigers, so he was the guy that bought the team.

Charles: 17:57

And then he was in charge of running that team and managing these players that they brought into the system and on, you know, for the tigers, like he was the guy that he was basically like the general manager and manager of this team, and so that's what I'm saying, so like he would have to have. So I have no idea how they connected with tigers, but they would have to have a pretty significant faith in this guy if they're going to give him x amount of dollars to buy a minor league team and run it on their behalf. I mean they have to think very highly of him.

Charles: 18:28

It wasn't like some random guy where like, oh, he's been around for eight years, let's just hire him. I mean Frank Navin's, trusting him with a significant investment to buy this team and to run it for him. And Frank Navin this is a detail to understand Frank Navin he was one of the only managers in baseball that didn't like make his. He wasn't a millionaire or whatever outside of the game, like he didn't own like wrigley's chewing gum, and then he just did baseball for the fun of it. No, frank naven, his business was running the tigers, yeah. So he was like if the tigers struggled financially, then so did he. Right, if he was struggling financially, then so was the tigers. He was interwoven with team, so when it came to the minor league teams he was trying to get it there.

Charles: 19:07

The Tigers were trying to build a minor league organization on the Branch Rickey St Louis Cardinals model. Tigers have been terrible, keep in mind, from 1928 when they bought the Evansville team. The Tigers had been dreadful for years. For years they had no identity. The tigers are. They're just a floundering organization. They had not done anything since Ty Cobb was long gone, like long gone by. This point left tonight. Well, not long ago he left the tigers in 1926. Um, so a couple of years removed from the end of the Ty Cobb era in Detroit. And so there you have, um, uh, you know.

Charles: 19:42

So there the tigers are, they're looking for anything they can do to get involved where they're like oh, the new big thing is Branch Rickey, you're built, you got to have your. You have to own your own minor league teams and develop your own players, right? So this is the moment where the Tigers are getting into that, getting into that realm. Right, I mean, they've already got a couple of scouts that they've already. They have the genesis guy with you know, jack Zeller and these other guys we've talked about, you know Eddie Goose tree, and then they've already got their scouts. Or you know roam the country. But now we're talking about the teams themselves, and so the Evansville team in 1928 becomes their, their class B team, and so, like I say, bob Coleman is the manager.

Charles: 20:22

So the thing. So the players that came through and I've left my notes at the office, as you know, but this is where I wish I had them with me at this exact second, because I actually had the list by year of each player. But you have the players that we know from the 35 Tigers. I'm just kind of going through them. I've got the thing in front of me right now. Um you, the players that are going through the from 1928 through 1931, through this evansville team, right, these four years, it's, it's like every guy that that's that would become cornerstones of the tigers. Okay, it's like every you have every. You have hank greenberg, eldon aucker, tommy bridges, pete fox, jojo white, all eldoncker, they all went through Bob.

Jamie: 21:05

Coleman. So Bob had his hands on all this. All these guys Feeding them upstream, feed them upstream. How important is, bob, to us winning that first World Series. That's essential. This is like who has talked about this? Nobody, ever, ever Pieced one and two and three together because, just seeing this, yes, this is an important.

Charles: 21:30

This is this is the beginning of it this is the lynchpin henchman.

Jamie: 21:34

This is, this is, this is what swings it to. It's like here's that talent moving upstream, yes, and if he wasn't there cultivating it and saying this cat?

Charles: 21:44

they wouldn't have gone to the next level. You gotta give them a try or bring them up yes, in fact, here's an article here's, tell me more about.

Charles: 21:51

Well here's an example. I actually have an example of a real life situation where he, where they contributed now, this is jack zeller, that's actually that's that the article is featured on but but eldon acker himself talks about bob. So eldon aucker, of course, just to refresh people's memory, he was a submarine pitcher for the 34 and 35 tigers and so, um, and actually ronald reagan credits eldon aucker with his big break in hollywood. Oh, yes, really yes, because ronald reagan was a chicago uh broadcaster in 1934, and so before the 1934 world series, eldon Ocker granted him an interview and so, and he was the starting pitcher of one of those games. And so Eldon Ocker, in his personal memoirs, called sleeper cars and flannel uniform is just one of the best books you'll baseball books you ever read.

Charles: 22:37

All right, eldon Ocker in that book talks about how Ronald Reagan, like I think he sent him a letter, or years later, um, did send some kind of a thank you to him, because ronald reagan said your interview you gave me. Because ronald reagan he was a, he was a reporter for, like the iowa, like des moines iowa, some radio station in des moines iowa. But the fact that he was able to get eldon acker, that starting pitcher of that game to get like to tell the des moines, you know, residents like, oh, this is what's about to happen, but but Eldon Acker was from there, so he was from. You know, he's from Kansas, which from that general area, and so he um, and so that was so. Anyways, that was so. Reagan, you know, in that book says it's him, but anyway. So Eldon Acker was a, a pitcher for the 1934 and 35 Tigers.

Charles: 23:21

He was also the guy who, when the when they closed tiger stadium, eldon auker was the guy who, um, said this quote he passed on, like. He passed the flag from tiger stadium to to, uh, brad osmus to take the flag to comerica park from tiger stadium. He was there at the ceremony it says he actually says, brad, take this flag to comerica, your new home, and take with it the boyhood dreams, the perseverance and the competitive desire it takes to become a Detroit Tiger. Never forget us, for we live on those that carry on this Tiger tradition and who so proudly wear the old English D. That was Eldon Auker.

Charles: 23:57

What year was this? That was when they closed Tiger Stadium. That was their final night. Oh, they closed tiger stadium. Eldon aucker, like, passed the tiger stadium flag to, to brad osmus, who took the flag, because brad osmus, I know he was a manager but he was also the catcher for the team, yeah, at the time. And he and you know, and so eldon aucker, who's like 90 or 80 something, yeah, I was gonna say what year, what year it is it was in.

Charles: 24:21

Uh, I have it right here 1999 all right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, actually the quote continues he says, he says, he said, to wear this uniform is a great privilege and an honor. On behalf of the old Tigers, we ask the young Tigers of today and tomorrow to wear this uniform with pride and never, on the field or off, allow your personal conduct to defile or disgrace the great tradition this uniform represents. And always remember Brad wants a tiger, always a tiger, thank you, and God bless all the tigers of the past, present and the future, and God bless the fans who make all this possible. That's out knocker.

Jamie: 24:50

So that's a signature guy talking about. But here's what I want to get into is the old English D and talking about and like saying and calling it Cause that's like it's, it's such a Detroit thing. Oh, it's iconic, you know, it's all you know yeah, you know Magnum PI.

Charles: 25:08

Right, it's my favorite show, magnum PI.

Jamie: 25:10

It's my favorite show of all time, it's because he's like he's not really a Detroit guy but he just loves the Tigers. Yeah, you know. I mean you know he's got the Detroit ties, but it's like.

Charles: 25:19

Do you know on Magnum that Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker made an appearance?

Jamie: 25:23

in the show. That's one of the greatest episodes ever, anyways. It's like I've always contemplated getting that old English D on the forearm that so many of the rock stars get. I got a couple pieces of ink. Do you have any tattoos?

Charles: 25:37

No, no, you got the Irish graphics.

Jamie: 25:39

I do, I got my family coat of arms. Get that city of champions logo on your chest bro. Dude, get the prison. Tat style it's across your chest.

Charles: 25:49

Get that tattooed on your chest. No, but it'll be the big chest tattoo. I'm not going to do it across my chest, full chest. I'm like a sass the Conor. Mcgregor, I'm furry, I'm a sass clutch, shave it and then get the tat.

Jamie: 26:03

Yeah, I'd shave it down all the time. But just one time, just to get it tatted, and then they're wiping me down in the old man's home. What the fuck is this? It's all good, so, anyways, shut me up.

Charles: 26:15

So I want to progress because there's a couple things I want to read here. No, I want to digress. Okay, go ahead. Digress, digress, you can.

Jamie: 26:21

Digress, you got the freedom, just the tattoos, the old English, the D the old. A lot of the rappers, the Bob the Marshall, they got that old English D on their forearms. But I love that he mentioned that.

Charles: 26:39

Yeah, it's a source of great pride I have the respect for the old and that goes back to Tom and the Magna PI thing.

Jamie: 26:44

It's a source of great pride. I have the respect for the old and that goes back to Tom and the Magna PI thing. It's iconic, I love that he really pointed that out.

Charles: 26:51

Yeah, that was his speech he gave at the final closing night of Tiger Stadium. That's why it's worth reading real quick. I know it was a little bit of a divergence.

Jamie: 27:00

No, it isn't.

Charles: 27:02

But anyway, so real quick, let me just Hang on.

Jamie: 27:05

Go ahead.

Charles: 27:06

Let me Don't spit, bro. Go ahead and spit.

Jamie: 27:09

Well, tiger Stadium, right, briggs Stadium evolved into Tiger Stadium on that location and then, you know, finally went away and then now we got Comerica Park. But at that old Tiger Stadium space there's this interesting little ball field, interesting is one choice of words, but go ahead.

Charles: 27:27

There's a space there, they concreted over it.

Jamie: 27:30

There's a space there.

Charles: 27:31

They put concrete over the grass, they astroturfed the grass Did they astroturf.

Jamie: 27:34

They astroturfed the grass there. Yes, Are you a little? Sounds like you're mad about that.

Charles: 27:38

I got to play softball on it before they did it it. They did it as one of the greatest days of my life.

Jamie: 27:41

On Champions Day, right On Champions.

Charles: 27:43

Day Will McDowell set it up. The first champions. It was the first champions week and we got to play softball there and I want to give a little mention.

Jamie: 27:50

Where the hell was I?

Charles: 27:52

Well, I didn't even know, you then.

Jamie: 27:53

I know.

Charles: 27:57

But it was back when I first got out to Detroit and it was one of the greatest days of my one of my best friends in the world he went out. We were going out to that lot to go play softball that day, yeah, and he looked at me and he said bet me that he goes, bet me the first round of drinks after the game.

Charles: 28:09

He said I'm not gonna make an out today and the two of us that we got to go play baseball on the and it was dirt. There was no stadium, it was all dirt and they, you know, oh yeah, even stadium grounds crew had built up bases. It made it a softball field yeah, it was one of the greatest things I've ever done, and my friend, literally that day, did not make an out and he was like the like we were playing.

Charles: 28:29

We were playing slow pitch softball yeah and he was like, and he was on the mound pitching a couple innings. He was like an elite hurler, like he was. He even said to me after game he said gorgeous. He said I felt like I was controlling the wind. He was in the zone. He got in the zone zone. He got in the zone. He got in the zone Windbender. Yes, he got in the zone on Tiger Stadium grounds Love it On the dirt, like on the same grounds that Ty Cobb and them were playing my friend.

Charles: 28:54

Kevin Bush. I'll never forget it. He was coming up to me. He's like I can feel it, bro. I'm in the zone, I'm like I like Comerica Park.

Jamie: 29:01

It's a nice ballpark, comerica Park is a nice ballpark. It's a nice ballpark. Sanitized. It's a nice ballpark. It's got a whiskey bar. I'm a sucker for whiskey. All right, I'm a tourist. It's a nice ballpark, but there's something about Tiger Stadium and the history of it. It was sad to see it go.

Charles: 29:27

But I like that. There's like that that regardless of it's.

Jamie: 29:28

It's concrete, it's concreted over in its astroturf or whatever, but there's still something of a, a semblance of it's there. There's still a respect of it, there's still an acknowledgement of where who acknowledges it. There's a field there still.

Charles: 29:45

Yeah, but where's any discussions about any pilgrimages there for any ceremonial?

Jamie: 29:49

events Besides us.

Charles: 29:50

Yeah, there's nobody. There's no, that big crowd has been erased. We are. They stripped. It's like there's a field there, there's people that play. You could say you can make a case that there's kids that play baseball or whatever. You make a case that there's like kids that play baseball or whatever. But but the thing about it is like, um, it's, it just feels like from the very inception of of Tiger, from the very moment that they announced that Comerica park was about to be built, that every that everything that could have been done, that was possible to erase this, this, the soul of that stadium, was done to strip it to gut it, to pave it, to do whatever they could to get rid of it Really.

Jamie: 30:24

Yeah, to gut it, to pave it, to do whatever they could to get rid of it Really. Yeah, that's my feelings on the matter.

Charles: 30:26

Yes, all right, all right, and so I feel like there's no celebrations there, there's no commemoratives of anything, whatever anniversaries or any of any events. I mean there's no, like I say, in Comerica Park. I mean it's a ballpark, it's sanitized. I mean, it is what it is To you know sort of I mean it's a. It's it is. It is what it is. It's to me you know I'm not going to I mean it is what it is. It's a. It's a reflection of modern day baseball as it exists today.

Charles: 30:51

That's what it is and if you like that, if you like that, then that's, that's your personal preference. Good for you, Jamie.

Jamie: 30:56

Good for you, jamie. Everybody has their own opinions. Give of the old days any day when give me the unsanitized version, but there's a little bit of an acknowledgement I.

Charles: 31:11

It hasn't been bulldozed over. There's a ball.

Jamie: 31:12

They play baseball there yeah, there's still a little bit. There's a like, I think, like a flagpole and maybe like a fence or something, I don't know. Just yeah, it's very minimal, it absolutely minimal, but there's still an acknowledgement. I'll say one more aspect.

Charles: 31:29

I'll say one more aspect on it is, I preferred it when the Navin Fields grounds crew was doing that stadium and they turned it into a softball field where people could just come and play.

Jamie: 31:38

When that was there, it was closed.

Charles: 31:41

You have to have a subscription or something.

Jamie: 31:43

You got to live there.

Charles: 31:47

Back then I used to go down there every once in a while and in fact it wasn't just that day when we played softball. I used to pop down there all every once in a while to go like, have a have, like a meeting about, like there was somebody one time that it was just an open public lot where you could play baseball on the grounds where the greats played games and you could like literally just go down there and have a play catch there.

Charles: 32:12

It was like that's. It felt like. There was like, even though the stadium was gone, at least then you know you were on the same like natural grass zone that, the same grounds, that the um that these people had once played on yeah you know that the soul was there, but it's like you know, once you concrete it over or whatever it is, I don't even know how it is.

Charles: 32:33

I know there's like an astroturf, but it's and it's just not um, I mean it just. It's just, you know, it's sort of modern, I guess you'd call progress or whatever.

Jamie: 32:42

But what was the other image you gave me? You gave me a second image.

Charles: 32:46

Well, that's a ballpark, so that's evansville ballpark evansville yeah, that's, yeah, that's for the hub, all right talking about vintage ballparks.

Jamie: 32:53

Um, so how does this tie into what we're talking about? Well, it's the evansville ballpark.

Charles: 32:56

I just threw that in there to show what it looked like back in the this. This picture was taken it was a as a postcard from 1938.

Jamie: 33:03

All article I wanted to the quote I wanted to read, yeah, before I went off on my like crazy.

Charles: 33:07

So the quote that I want to read was for Eldon Ocker, who was a submarine pitcher, which man he threw basically underhand. Oh yeah, he threw underhand, and so that's where they really found. Well he used to said in super cars and flannel uniforms that they're said in super cars and flannel uniforms that the third base coach is for the Yankees.

Jamie: 33:30

He'd be like probably, how about you go over there and see if you can hit it? Motherfucker?

Charles: 33:33

No, his third base, the third base coach for the Yankees name was Art Fletcher, and Art Fletcher came.

Charles: 33:42

the Yankees were notorious for just being able to torment their opponents, especially weaker opponents like the tigers were getting slaughtered all the time and so so, uh, babe, ruth had struck out versus eldon acker and bait and so, um, uh, so art fletcher came to uh eldon acker and said to him because he was walking out there. He said hey, rook, you know, hey, you know, hey, rook, uh, the babes kind of upset with you. And he said what for out there? He said, hey, rook, you know, hey, you know, hey, rook, uh, the babe's kind of upset with you. And he said what for what? And he said well, he said he's been struck out plenty of times. He's just never been struck out by a girl before right, he's never been struck out by.

Charles: 34:17

I like that, yes, so that infuriated ochre hell yeah and ochre ended up pitching fairly well, be as a result, and mickey cochran as a result. Um realized that Eldon Ocker pitched better when he was angry, and so Mickey Cochran started doing.

Jamie: 34:33

You're an angry elf, mickey Cochran.

Charles: 34:36

Mess up stuff, dude. So Mickey Cochran started. So there was a huge divergence from where? So Mickey Cochran?

Charles: 34:42

used to torment Eldon O, make him like just just rile him up all the time. But for schoolboy row he was like, not that, he was super nice and all schooly, you're the best picture. You'll get him next time, schooly, you know, like you're just super nice to him. But for eldon he would, he would do whatever he could to get under his skin. He himself would do it. But anyways, back to bob coleman. Um, it was bob coleman right, writing this quote in Eldon Ocker's Sleeper Cars and Flannel Uniforms, where Eldon Ocker says I was convinced to drop my throwing motion down even further by Bob Coleman, my manager, when I was playing for the 3I League. He said I pitched batting practice for about five days, throwing underhand, and all the guys were moaning and complaining. Based on that, it seemed to be a pretty effective way to frustrate hitters. So, as bob coleman in the, then the league was called the three-eye league because it was the illinois indiana iowa league oh, fair play, and

Charles: 35:34

so that's why they call the three-eye league and so and so. But he credits bob coleman for um, for his delivery right. And then here's a sort of a follow-up uh article to this and bob coleman's not mentioned in this but it mentions jack zeller. And I like this article for this moment in the show because it talks about how this system was functioning at this time, because he and I'll read it it says this elden aucker, uh, no, this is uh the detroit times from uh, from November 24th 1935. So this is after the Tigers won the World Series. They're just writing a bunch of articles about going back in time a little bit. So it was part of Navin's baseball creed never to interfere with the direction of the team by his managers, and he placed the same confidence in his other workers. He proved himself a great executive by he must be talking about the death of Frank Navin because they're looking back in the past. So he proved himself a great executive by sidetracking his own opinions when men charged with definite responsibilities were firm in theirs.

Charles: 36:34

The Detroit ball club brought up Ocker when it when it did, because Navin followed Jack Zeller's judgment, not his own. In the last months of the 1933 season Detroit needed a pitcher. Navin got in touch with Zellers, one of Detroit's Western scouts, and told him to send Dick Schultz, a Beaumont pitcher, to Detroit. You don't want Schultz, you don't want Schultz. Auker is the pitcher you want. Zellers told his boss, no, I want Schultz, retorted Navin. I tell you Auker is the man who will do you more good, insisted zellers. All right, replied nathan. If you feel that that positive about it, I'll follow your advice. After all, I'm paying you to know.

Charles: 37:09

So ochre came to detroit, and so it was characteristic of nathan that when ochre arrived he told the circumstances of his selection. You are not the pitcher I wanted. Nathan, told the young right hander. You must understand you are here under rather severe trial. If you don't make good, I will enjoy telling zellers he made a mistake, so he's. So he's saying I don't even want you here, but they told me you're the guy, so I'll enjoy being right. You know you're. You're the guy I didn't want. So anyways, it kind of shows you that I like that because there's a little aside into how that system was functioning, which was coleman's managing these guys, ockers with his in his tutelage, zeller's the overall director of the entire system, and Coleman's telling him this Auker's the guy you want, and Zeller's telling Navin, coleman's telling me I'm telling you, so there's that, so anyways.

Charles: 37:59

So what's interesting, the next level up when talking about Coleman is that all these guys are flowing through through the evansville team, from 28, 29, 30, 31 and so, but, but by 1931, uh, the team is basically like it's in the middle.

Charles: 38:17

Now you're in the great depression, right? I mean 1929, stock market crash, 1930, 31, the, the country's, you know, deteriorate, you know slipping into the depression. So so these last couple years the evansville team is just doing terrible financially 1930, 31, the country's deteriorating, slipping into the Depression. So these last couple of years the Evansville team is just doing terrible financially, just absolutely falling apart. And so by the end of 31, the city was actually raising the rent on the stadium, and so the team actually gets moved to Decatur, illinois. They're still part of the 3I League, but they get moved to Decatur for for just this one year and they don't even make it through 1932, before the Decatur team, before they, the team folds outright, and so by the so but the tigers this is kind of what's interesting is that the tigers, not wanting to just have Bob Coleman, just kind of like vanish into the winds. Bob Coleman, they bringman to detroit to be a coach with the tigers in 1932 at the end of the year.

Jamie: 39:09

Right, so he's just a coach, he's not their manager bob seems like a guy who's on it, who's on it he should be somewhere in the system adding his input yeah, so that's where they're like.

Charles: 39:21

They didn't want to lose him, to just let cut him loose and go find a job, so they actually hired him, as, like some, I don't know, batting coach or whatever it was, but they've got it. So they bring him to Detroit. That's his first taste within the major leagues as a and now he's. So now he's just a coach, you know, on the Tigers, sure, but then the very next year they send him to their class, a team in Beaumont, texas.

Jamie: 39:43

Make something happen over here.

Charles: 39:44

And this is what's interesting, is that that?

Charles: 39:45

is good stuff so well, dell Baker. So this is what we're going to talk about in the next show is that Dell Baker is the manager of the Beaumont exporters in Texas, beaumont, texas, and this 1932 Beaumont team is like a team for the ages. Like all these players that flowed through, that flowed from 1928, 2930, all the way through these. You know these lower, you know through the class B level, they've all reached the 1932 team in Beaumont. And this Beaumont team is like a dream team. They have Hank Greenberg schoolboy row, like all these guys are all there. There's a stack of teams, yeah, and so there's a stack of these players.

Jamie: 40:20

Because they're all in the minors at this time.

Charles: 40:22

They're all in 32. This 1932. Beaumont team is this elite stars?

Jamie: 40:34

At the time. They don't know. They're star-studded and fated to be like the team that goes on to become this 35-tiger team.

Charles: 40:36

All they know is Eddie Tolan is winning the gold medal. They don't know that. Oh, yes, yes, they do know that in the Olympics, in 32.

Jamie: 40:41

All they know is Eddiedie's willing to gold for us at 32 I'm sure all they know is that they're playing baseball. Having fun, yes, and hey, that detroit guy eddie tolan's winning some gold, so as we'll talk in more detail I'm just trying to well as we will call back no, I guess you know you and you hit it right because 1930. You hit it right in the head because olympic schools that he told us see but the 1932, so the but the 1932 beaumont team is.

Charles: 41:03

We're going to get into it on the next show. But this 1932 Beaumont team, all these players on this 1932, we're talking Hank Greenberg, Schoolboy Rowe. There's a bunch of guys in this Beaumont team. I've got this great team photo of all of them. They're all together. It's got Del Baker, it's got all of them on there. And this is the minor team. This is the minor league team. This is their class 18. That's one step away from the majors.

Jamie: 41:26

And this is, this is the chunk of the dude. This is, yeah, I think they won the night.

Charles: 41:30

I think they won that, that class, a championship.

Jamie: 41:31

Like they're a bunch of studs but these are the guys.

Charles: 41:34

They came through Bob Coleman. They went up to the Beaumont exporters. They, I believe they, won the championship, bob joined him again. Yes, and so they, and they get well, but not. But yeah, but not in 1932, he went to the tigers in 32. Yeah, and so on 32,. Dell Baker was the manager at Beaumont.

Jamie: 41:51

Yeah.

Charles: 41:52

So at the end of 32, like the beginning of 1933, why do I know Dell Baker's? Name. We're going to. We're going to talk about him that's why he's a major factor yeah, he's a third base coach. Let me, let me go back. Let me go back. I know nothing about nothing.

Jamie: 42:10

Yeah, I'm explaining sports and, as I lose some stuff here and there because I'm not well, I'm not as deep into as you are, all right. So dell, he was there. This is one of the things to understand.

Charles: 42:18

Is the focus for a moment I understand this concept 32 so before. So all the way up through 32. Yeah, it's bob coleman at B and it's Del Baker at Class A. Okay, so they're funneling through Bob Coleman, he's passing the baton to Del Baker at Class A. Okay, so now at the end of 32, the Evansville team and the I'm sorry, the Decatur team, the Class B team folds okay from not having enough money. Oh, right, and so Bob Coleman goes to the Tigers. That I'm sorry, the Decatur team, the Class B team folds. Okay from not having enough money, right.

Jamie: 42:49

And so Bob Coleman goes to the Tigers. Right, that's a lot of money Follow me, follow me.

Charles: 42:51

Yeah, I want to finish the thought. Go go, bob Coleman goes to the Tigers in 32. At the same time that Del Baker is winning this, you know they have this all-star team. I think they won the championship at 32 for a Class A Beaumont okay. Now in 33, at the beginning of the year, that whole squad of Beaumont players all gets promoted to the major leagues. Oh, okay, in 1933. Wow, that super team from Beaumont gets promoted, and so does. Let me finish.

Jamie: 43:19

So does Del Baker, are we going to do? Are we going to, should we do, the whole next episode on this shift? That's this shift. That's well, that's we're gonna get into, but I want to give you that we're talking about bob cole.

Charles: 43:31

I love this role in this shift. I love that bob coleman goes from the tigers as a coach and he goes to beaumont to fill dell baker's position because he departed along with a crap ton of like.

Jamie: 43:42

So they yes, I'm trying to say it's all these- yes, and and.

Charles: 43:45

So this was this dread, this class of talent. That, bob, that's what I'll say it again. So just we'll get through, so we'll just sort of progress, the whole thing Okay. So, 28 through, so from 1928, when he, when he he acquires the Evansville team for the tigers yeah, this is the first, this is like their first class b team that they have in the as an affiliate team, right? So these players all come through bob coleman and he passes them on to beaumont with dell baker, dell baker, they.

Jamie: 44:16

They become like a super team.

Charles: 44:17

Yeah right, and then dell baker cops and yes, but but as he passes the baton in 32, that evansville team folds, which became the cater folds.

Jamie: 44:26

Money thing.

Charles: 44:27

yeah, yes, and Bob Coleman goes up to the Tigers just to hold on to his contract so he's got a place with the Tigers to coach, so he doesn't hurt us anywhere else.

Jamie: 44:35

Well, so he doesn't. They don't lose him. They love the guy.

Charles: 44:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so then when the super team from Beaumont that he had helped to shape at a lower level guys super cops. They all go up to the tigers and then bob coleman goes from the tigers back to beaumont because they that's where he slots in as the minor league coach, whereas this rest of this team is now with the tigers and that's the beginning of the rise of the tigers to the 34 and 35 championships yeah, 34 series and the 35 championship.

Charles: 45:05

It's these guys that evolved so at 33, they're all rookies, they're all young.

Jamie: 45:11

How important is Bob Coleman to Detroit's baseball success?

Charles: 45:18

Well, here we are. We're laying it out right now, and we just said it and you just said it.

Jamie: 45:20

We just spent the last 40 minutes saying it. Yeah, he was the guy that they first passed through him.

Charles: 45:24

He is. He passed the baton.

Jamie: 45:29

And then he comes back to Bowman. Who has ever spent 40 minutes talking about Bob Coleman? Nobody.

Charles: 45:33

This is the first time in the internet, but it's trying to lay out. This is how, because it's from this position. It's from this position where Del Baker and the Super Squad goes up to the Tigers. This is really their first affiliate class really super.

Jamie: 45:49

Yeah, that's.

Charles: 45:49

It's highly appropriate but what I'm saying is this is really the first, the first like sort of tigers affiliate draft class and like even even my own self. That's why it's such kind of like. A revelation to me is because you think that they've, the tigers, been doing this for like 20 years and they did did to a certain extent they had players come from the minors, but not like this. This was like their first time that they had their own affiliate-owned team where they owned the team, just like Branch Rickey did, just like where they had their own team. They developed their own players and this squad of players all goes to the majors together as, like this talented young core group of guys, they go up to the Tigers in 1933, but they're all rookies, they're unsuccessful, they don't pan out in their first year Pat Greenberg's not even a starter in the first year and prior to this, the Detroit Tigers were poop they were terrible.

Charles: 46:38

Poop, yes, but they have this young class of guys going up Right, right, and so all this youngest.

Jamie: 46:44

You don't know. You don't know. People were coming to the games like average Joe tourist, buying their 25 10 cent ticket to go to the game.

Charles: 46:53

Had no idea what they were going to see. But the thing is, you have this young class that's going in At 33, they were terrible, and it was Bucky Harris who was someone of a legendary manager.

Jamie: 47:03

Give me a boy named Bucky. That's all I need.

Charles: 47:11

So Bucky Harris basically run the team is not playing, is not performing for him, and so he's their man. So his final year with the tigers is 33 and he quits with just a couple games left in 33 seasons because it's just, it's falling apart for him. And so dell baker becomes the manager of the tigers for the last couple games in 33. And so now this like young super team that's that he came up with, he's the tiger manager. So what's important to understand what this story is now is that when naven goes after mickey cocker in 34, mickey comes in as the new manager of the team and displaces dell baker, who you know, for all these young guys are like we came up not only we come up with the minors, let me finish.

Charles: 47:46

Not only did we come up with the minors, let me finish. Not only did we come up with Del Baker as our manager from Beaumont. We had the super team, del Baker's our manager there. We came up to the majors with Del Baker. The manager of the Tigers didn't know how to utilize us, so he left. Now Del's the head manager of this team, but all of a suddenkey comes in as the new manager and mickey's got some dreams and misky's got the juice.

Jamie: 48:09

He's got the juice and so that's a drag them along so this is an important thing to understand.

Charles: 48:12

Is dell baker has for the good of the franchise and organization is like, look, I gotta step down for the good of this organization all right, here's the thing and so he becomes the third base coach, and we'll talk about. He becomes the third base coach, as we'll talk about. He becomes the third base coach for the Tigers for 34-35, and eventually he'll be the management team when they win the World Series in 1945.

Jamie: 48:32

Del Baker and Bob Coleman. Without those two cats, detroit would not be the sports city it is today. Without those two guys Well, they're essential components it would not the Tigers of 34 and 35 would not have happened as well as they did. I would argue they would not. And then the rest of it. Because the Lions piggybacked off of that, the Red Wings felt the pressure piggybacked off of that and the rest of the 30 champions, the rest of the 30 hacks. They would have been yeah. That was just coincidental yeah.

Charles: 49:13

But yeah, Would they have got the attention that they got if they wouldn't for the Tigers, Lions, Red Wings and Joe. Who would say? Who would say that Detroit, the Detroit police sharpshooters in?

Jamie: 49:22

35 won a national championship.

Charles: 49:24

We won 27 championships. The.

Jamie: 49:26

Stroh's bowling team in 1935 won a national championship.

Charles: 49:28

We won 27 championships and they're like, yeah, was any of the majors of Tigers, Lions, Red Wings? Like no, we didn't win any of those, but we won 27 other ones.

Jamie: 49:38

Is there a plaque or is there a statue? Is there a remembrance of these two cats?

Charles: 49:45

I think you know the answer to that question.

Jamie: 49:47

There's nothing. That's what I'm saying. You know what? There is no, Charles. You know what there is? There's one hell of a podcast. Oh, there is, that's exactly what the freak we're doing here. I said the other word earlier a couple times, but no, that's why we're here to share the news about these incredible dudes, but what? Bob Coleman, the story of Bob Coleman does?

Charles: 50:07

in addition to the fact that he's just a major contributor for the development of this young core of players, what he does is that he's actually developing the next core, because the Tigers would go to the world series in 1940 and they would win the 1945 world series.

Charles: 50:23

So the 1940 were so that that continuing a lot of the players that would go on to be the tigers, uh, you know talent. In 1940 I mean, you still had a couple guys that were still there from the 35 tigers, but you also had a bunch of new guys and those are the guys that coleman's developing in beaumont in, you know. You know, while the tigers are doing their things in 35, 36 so, or 34, 34, 35. So that's what I'm saying is that this is a guy who you know, who is essential for the development of the tigers, as you know for their, for their found date, you know for their, you know their talent, their minor league development system, as well as the 1934 you know 35 championship teams.

Jamie: 51:03

You know, you'd almost call these to them. You'd almost call these things side stories. You'd almost call them like a side story, like they're almost insignificant.

Charles: 51:11

But they are very, but they're part of the story.

Jamie: 51:14

But they are very significant, because without a, there's not b, there's not right, yeah and so and you also what happened here was very, very the what would.

Charles: 51:22

What we talked about when what you like delved into, is very, very important I think so too, and that's what I mean is like that today was the day that I actually put these pieces together, so I love doing this show because, and like at the time, I'm like, so I knew that bob coleman was like an important class b manager for the Tigers.

Charles: 51:37

I knew that when I put this together but I didn't understand because they said that, oh, bob Coleman was a coach for the Tigers in 32. And I was like looking up like you, you're looking up all these things about why was Bob Coleman the manager of 32 Tigers? There's no explanations no explanations. But until you see that the next year, in 33, he's the manager of Beaumont and they start breaking down the timeline and understanding that Del Baker went to the Tigers in 33 and then he went to Beaumont.

Charles: 52:02

That's when you start to understand how the pieces all fit together so why does nobody give a crap about it?

Jamie: 52:08

well, it's a baseball team from you know 95 years ago. Who cares? But you know you should care, because what's happening with the teams today? Where is it?

Charles: 52:20

going today. Well, the thing about caring about history is this it's back to the.

Jamie: 52:24

If you don't, if you don't study history, you're going to repeat the same mistakes.

Charles: 52:27

But the thing, well, that's that, that's one line.

Charles: 52:29

I think the way that I look at history is is that if you learn about history, if you learn about the things that came before you, yeah, you're able to replicate what these people did. You understand what they did and you can either replicate or you can build upon their successes and reach for something higher than they once did. That's to me. That's the history I love, which is the functional, the history that can serve as a purpose in the modern and future days. And so that's so. It's like. It's so exactly when people say if so, anybody that's not interested, that says, well, I only care about the tigers of today, that's fine, you can think that way, it's fine. But as far as having an opinion about like, what like? Why are the tigers doing this? Why are the tigers doing that?

Charles: 53:13

You, without the, without the um, the, the history, but you know the, the substance of what came before and the lessons that should be learned from the past, all you're doing is you're blindly thrashing into the woods without any type of a guidebook that says don't go into those woods, we've already done that and it failed. Or how about this? We went that direction and it worked, worked. So you should probably go that direction without having those that, that previous, uh, historical foundation. You don't know, you have no you're, you're going blind. It's like current tigers, current tigers like these same concept. It's the same concept these current teams with.

Charles: 53:53

If you're you're, all you're doing is it's like maybe you're successful. You may be successful trying something new or whatever. It is like this, but why not base your current strategy based on the successes of the past and saying, well, that worked for them. But you know what? I'm not going to do that because I don't think it's right for the now, for what's going on now. Or that worked for them, maybe it'll work for us too. Maybe we'll take a piece of what they did. And the thing is, is that understand in that detroit, understanding? This other concept is is that, especially in the world of sports, all these cities are different. There's different things. That that you need to. You know that there's different aspects to different franchises and different markets. You know different cities, different like sports markets. Some work for some cities and some, some don't work for others.

Charles: 54:41

To understand the history of Detroit it's essential to know these stories if you give a crap whatsoever about the present and future of your franchises.

Jamie: 54:50

If anybody says the city and the fans and the sport does not impact the team, they're mistaken. They're mistaken If they're just like we're here we're spending money, we're just like, if it's just we're here, we're spending money, we're going to buy these players, we're going to do this thing if you're not taking into account the, the, the, the climate of the city the fact. Support of the fans you're pissing into the wind and also the the nature of the fans themselves.

Charles: 55:14

What makes up the fans?

Jamie: 55:15

because the because, what's going to work in one city is not going to be 100% so, therefore, to understand the aspects, not all, of it, but part of it.

Charles: 55:24

But to understand, if you're looking to build a successful franchise, a successful team, it's essential information for you to know what came before. So, therefore, because the thing is not to say that you have to copy what they did, but being informed about what worked in the past for this particular city, in this particular franchise, what it does for you is gives you the option to say that was a good idea, they did something right. I should also emulate that or two. You could say that worked for them, but I don't think so. But it gives you an educated choice, right. It gives you an educated choice rather than not even having the information whatsoever. Right?

Charles: 56:02

And I think that that's where the team leadership, that's where the media, like Dan Campbell and the Lions, they've sort of I think they tapped into it just because of Dan Campbell's nature, because that nature of Dan Campbell, that is what these Lion teams were before. Fuck yeah, that's what they were before. And so just the nature of campbell himself. I want more harkens back to these, these team, these earlier eras that were successful, and I think that that like they, basically, I don't want to say locked into it, because maybe I think it may be like god's work helping us get there I'm gonna argue with you, but what I'm saying?

Charles: 56:36

is, is that. But what I'm saying is is that if you, if, maybe, if they would have, if the lions would have looked into their history earlier on, they may have been able to say that's the kind of coach, in culture, ethos, that we need to take that next level and therefore look for a dan campbell type coach sooner, rather than just hope to blindly stumble into what worked, you know, at 20, 30 years or 50 years into their rebuilding. You know so. But anyways, yes, to understand what came before you had in his innocent, you know, in the tigers, you could extend that to understanding their, their, their history of their, uh, minor league foundation. You know their minor league system in the 1980s, in the 1990s, and understanding which, like which is my perception, which is my understanding is that the detroit tigers minor league system went through the 80s and 90s, deteriorated into a barrel of rotten apples.

Jamie: 57:25

That has never been dumped. I do want to talk. I do want to. I don't know I spent a ton on that, but I do it up. We'll do an episode on on that and where it went.

Jamie: 57:34

I'm really excited about next episode next time it's gonna be awesome and and and and where, where this, this turn took us, and so, before then, what you got to do is, uh, one, uh, appreciate our thank you for listening. And then two, like and subscribe and tell somebody. Tell somebody subscribe to it, like it. Comment on comments. We love the comments. We reply back and yeah and say hey and uh, so, yeah, so like, subscribe anybody. Let me just say this real quick there's like a fan mail button.

Charles: 58:07

Let me just say this to anybody that's like our fan right now. I just want to say this for you right now, we we're. You know, we know that we don't have like eight million fans, we know that we're sort of a niche subject.

Charles: 58:16

Okay, but I want to want to say this to you right now Is that one of these days, this show like there's people like this, like, if we get like a movie thing signed or whatever, like this, whatever thing sparks this story, the return of the story is inevitable. Okay, if I have to finance a movie myself to bring this story back, it is inevitable that this story is going to be massive and I'm never going to stop doing this show. And I just want to say this if you're a fan now and you're liking and you're commenting and you're, you know you're participating what we do right now, I just want to tell you that in the future, we got like a million fans or 10 million fans or whatever it is, and our super chats going crazy and all this. Like you're not even need to super chat and we're always going to spot you in the comments and we're always going to spot you in the comments and we're always going to remember you as the person who was there.

Jamie: 58:58

You do.

Charles: 58:58

The people who were there first and rolling with us at the beginning.

Jamie: 59:01

You got to see the front row, but nobody knew about this.

Charles: 59:03

And then we were like and there was a small group of diehards that recognized how the value of this story, recognized the individual component value of all these people, like a Bob Coleman or whatever. And we're going to remember you too, because every single person right now, you mean the world to us, for every single person that follows. And you, I swear to God that I am never like, whenever there's like a super chat thing or whatever in the future, that I'm going to pick out that people, that from there, from our early days, and you're going to be to me like family, and so so I'm just saying like everything, you do everything, Chris. Everybody in our chats we are all we love you guys. And everybody that likes and subscribes now you are our boys, man, Dan, and everybody like my sister, my dad, like everybody that comments and writes in Curtis, my brother, everybody that jumps in and puts comments on Our guy yeah, we are.

Jamie: 59:55

Who's our guy?

Charles: 59:55

Yeah, no, we are all going to be Our Portsmouth friends, all of our Portsmouth friends, everybody. Tom.

Jamie: 1:00:05

It's top of the list for everybody. Top of the list, Number one. Top of the list Top.

Charles: 1:00:12

Chris too. Chris is our.

Jamie: 1:00:14

Top guy.

Charles: 1:00:16

Dan too. Dan Farrell is in every episode. So that's what I'm saying, but that's what I'm saying In the future, our top top top guy man, and dan too, dan farrell's in every episode.

Jamie: 1:00:19

So it's insane.

Charles: 1:00:20

So we're, but, we're, but. So, but that's I'm saying, is that, um, in the future, like I, just like, even if I, if I, even if I have to finance this movie myself, which actually is my, goal that's actually my business plan is to finance the movie. I'm not like shop. I haven't even shopped the screenplay I was talking to lady dan. She was like she's like, have you shopped the screenplay?

Jamie: 1:00:38

I was like no I don't want to screw it up.

Charles: 1:00:40

I don't want anybody to take this thing and turn it into a crap movie. I'd rather do it financing myself. That's the way I think you know. So, um, it's inevitable. You have the greatest season in the history of american sport, the greatest hosts you have. Well, that, oh wait, I don't want to flatter me. Yeah, you are. I have one of the greatest hosts.

Jamie: 1:00:55

I don't want to flatter.

Charles: 1:00:56

I have one of the greatest hosts. I don't want to flatter myself like that. But I will acknowledge that you are.

Jamie: 1:01:01

Among the greatest hosts of all time. I was sitting here drinking all night.

Charles: 1:01:05

Well, it's been. But, I would acknowledge that you are One of the greatest hosts of all time. Thank you, the show flows.

Jamie: 1:01:15

Dude tonight. Here's the thing about today these little nuggets of like. Nobody has ever, ever, yes, blown the dust off of this like this, and, and that's what I'm saying it's like beyond admirable to me to to to be here as you, you as you, blow the dust off of this well, that's what I was excited. I'm just a cameraman, this is a guy as you, as you're the archaeologist, yeah, but blowing the dust off of it and finding these, yeah, but this is of information, you know, but you're just, you're essential.

Charles: 1:01:49

This, jim, I couldn't just I mean you're this, being able to like, explain this to you and conversate with you and have this whole show. You're an essential component. I wouldn't be able to do this without you, and so what I'm saying is that you see now why I was excited about this guy, about coming. I'm like, oh yeah, because the book I mean I will read to you.

Jamie: 1:02:05

Yeah well, you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read you freaking who? But as I got, into it.

Charles: 1:02:11

I'm like I'm gonna read to you my section on bob coleman and you tell me from this entire show we've done hey, they, dear Bob Right, compare that to what we've, the show we've just done, compare it to what I wrote in the book. All right, tell me the difference for how much of a, how much we've how much is a jump from the book right so this is my section on Bob Coleman and I have the one picture where he's throwing the ball, where he's like a young player.

Charles: 1:02:34

So I say in the book, one name who repeatedly pops up in the origin stories of many Tiger players is Bob Coleman, a tough as nails former catcher from the Pittsburghs and the Cleveland Indians 1916. In 1919, he began a managerial career that would last through 1957. In that span of years he would become a legend in Evansville, indiana, as a manager of the Tigers Farm Class B team, the Evansville Hubs. In his 20-year career as the Hubs manager, his teams would win eight pennants, five league titles and be voted three-eye league manager of the year in 1935. 37, 38, 41, 46 and 51.

Charles: 1:03:07

Such legends. Such legends as hank greenberg, eldon aucker, tommy bridges, pete fox, jojo white, charlie root and warren spawn benefited from the coleman's tutelage in evansville, while aucker credited cole Coleman for changing his delivery to his signature full submarine pitching motion once. Over the course of 35 minor league seasons, coleman won 2,496 games while losing 21 oh 20, 2,103, which is a 54 percent win percentage. He also served as bench coach for the Tigers in 1932 as the in the Boston Braves in 1943. That's everything I got, that's what I got.

Charles: 1:03:40

It's just straight stats. There's no connecting points or anything like I'm saying like that's what I had in the book, right, which is like. I mean, in fact, those are the things I wish I I wish I had I had on my notes that I forgot.

Jamie: 1:03:52

So it's good that I read that, because I just you know how much better this episode will be when you have your notes and we do it Well. Yeah, this was good, but it was good when I said let's just wing it.

Charles: 1:04:01

You know you're like well, it's maybe like the next one. No, let's wing it because I had a pretty good remembrance of the notes. But what I'm saying is that, from what I just read to what we just discussed, today is a monumental leap, you know, and that's what I'm saying.

Charles: 1:04:18

A leap, you know, I mean that's insane. It's like, you know, with a fresh pair of eyes and and this show as a tool to like drag it out and say today's episode is on bob coleman. Okay, well, who was this guy? You know, I mean, it was like kind of put me like, because when you're putting a book together, you got eight million players and you're going through just laying information down and, yeah, hitting print on the machine for a twelve thousand dollar book order. You're trying to get the book done and get it out and make sure you got the information on the guy and you're putting them out.

Charles: 1:04:39

And at the time it's just like at the time I'm looking at him. Like you know, this guy is, is a key guy in this farm system. I knew that much, but I didn't know exactly how he the, the mechanics of how he fit in. You know, I mean I knew he had this. I mean, again, I the reason I put him in is because he was mentioned so many times by so many players, and so that's why I was like he's got to make this book and so I'm glad he did, because it kind of you know we're revisiting him now and in finding a essential, you know, link in the chain for the Tigers minor league development system in its origin phase.

Jamie: 1:05:13

I just, I just want to. I just stoked about the next episode. Del Baker's going to be awesome.

Charles: 1:05:18

As we go. It's going to be fun yeah.

Jamie: 1:05:19

And Del. The name's come up before, so I'm looking forward to taking it a little deeper. We've got all kinds of stuff.

Charles: 1:05:27

I've got a magic eye for Del Baker.

Jamie: 1:05:29

Oh, I love it.

Charles: 1:05:30

There's a magic eye where he's waving a guy around.

Jamie: 1:05:33

third so we didn't talk about today.

Charles: 1:05:38

He's a magic guy of a third base coach. Where the magic guy is, it's him waving him through, it's him waving a guy around third. Yeah, it's awesome.

Jamie: 1:05:43

So we didn't talk about like the books, right? So you skimmed on that and there's three books, there's a whole like yeah, trilogy. It's like a big phone book, deep trilogy of books. Information on this, if you're into it, detroitcityofchampionscom will lead you towards getting your hands on those books and then other merch tintypes t-shirts.

Charles: 1:06:08

Or else come into 12 Oaks Mall or Partridge Creek Mall.

Jamie: 1:06:11

If you're in the Metro Detroit area, it just mentioned.

Charles: 1:06:14

If you're in the Metro Detroit area, come to 12 Oaks Mall in Novi or Partridge Creek Mall in Clinton Township. It's a great little Michigan art store that's where I sell out of. I manage the stores, but when you buy, the trilogy of books and you buy it.

Jamie: 1:06:23

There's like in the package there's a couple of little cool things. As we went through today, you're like oh, I need a couple of bookmarks. Well, I forgot the book with all?

Charles: 1:06:35

I asked Jamie. I said I need a bookmark because I wanted to jump back to the Elder Knocker quotes.

Jamie: 1:06:38

And I got some sticky notes over there. Yeah, jamie said.

Charles: 1:06:40

I got sticky notes. I go no, so I pulled out because these come with the books the original book, the first book, which I included with the trilogy, of course it comes with these two bookmarks no-transcript, so that's why I include two bookmarks with every book, right? So it was just awesome because jamie says I just said I need a bookmark, you know, for the page I go no I got it because jamie had his original trilogy here that I gave him. And so he, and so I'm like no.

Jamie: 1:07:20

I keep it in the studio to show off to everybody that comes through here.

Charles: 1:07:22

Yeah, so I got the bookmarks I get to use for my for the book, you know, so I got to use them today, everybody that comes into the podcast, your voice studios, I'm like.

Jamie: 1:07:29

Hey check this out yeah. And I I want to point out one other thing that came with the book, which is this which is this goose gosling holding?

Charles: 1:07:45

a goose. It's goose. This came with the book. It's a. I made my own baseball card for it, which is goose gosling, holding a goose and, if you'll notice, the goose has a tie on his neck, isn't? That crazy it's awesome and I was showing jamie, I said I said what's cool is.

Jamie: 1:07:57

This is one of when you buy the trilogy.

Charles: 1:07:58

Yeah, this comes with the book, and so what's awesome is that Goose Gosling's holding a goose, and then I was showing Jamie that there's at least five other pictures which are even better than this.

Jamie: 1:08:07

We're going to do that. We're going to do a super fan episode.

Charles: 1:08:10

We're going to do a Goose Gosling. Yeah, we're going to do a super fan episode. There's all these fans that have geese in their arms and they're all goose fans Talk about bringing your support animal.

Jamie: 1:08:20

It's like I'm going to bring my support alligator To the game. It's like people are bringing these goose.

Charles: 1:08:26

To the game.

Jamie: 1:08:27

How do you smuggle a goose in? You can't bring a pint of.

Charles: 1:08:32

Jameson's in. No, you can't, that's because it's all sanitized.

Jamie: 1:08:36

Lift up that goose. What, do you have? Any booze under that goose? No, all right, go in.

Charles: 1:08:41

Well, again it's like you're carrying that goose.

Jamie: 1:08:44

Are you using that goose to smuggle booze in?

Charles: 1:08:46

No, all right, go ahead, goose gosling, you and your goose, go on in, Go on in, yes, yeah but as I'm If you wanted to bring a goose in today, you're out of your frigging mind.

Jamie: 1:08:59

What about Gator Joe?

Charles: 1:09:01

Yeah, you want to bring your own gator in. Bring a damn gator in.

Jamie: 1:09:04

You think you could do that in today's game? No.

Charles: 1:09:06

No, hell, no, and that's what I'm trying to say, that when you say, when you're talking, about Comerica.

Charles: 1:09:18

I'm going to to disagree with that. What I'm trying to say is is that back in the sawdust and pint era, where you had overflow fields, crowds on the field, with police horseback keeping them back with a rope, back then that a guy could bring a goose into the game and, just like that picture I showed you, not only have a goose in his arm, but he could have a toy goose on a rope and a goose call on his mouth and be doing a goose call with a goose and a toy goose in both hands and he was down there so that during the parade he's pulling him through the parade and they're like bring that guy with the goose and the rubber goose into the, into the page, so that I need to party with that guy and so imagine in the right if I saw him in a crowd I'd be like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Jamie: 1:09:59

Yes, I need to party with that guy.

Charles: 1:10:01

But here's the thing Imagine the whole right field section where Goose Gosling is in, the right field and you have the entire section with geese, geese calls, geese toys and all this, the raucous environment and the fun that came out of that type of an environment. That was organically interesting.

Jamie: 1:10:21

We talked about a couple of the games where it got rowdy and things were getting thrown on the field.

Charles: 1:10:25

Yes, of course there was the negative side of it too.

Jamie: 1:10:27

No, no but it was like, it's like that it's part of the experience yes. To the 10th degree, yeah.

Charles: 1:10:34

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Is that's baseball to me. Baseball to me is where it's not sanitized. It doesn't have that corporate sort of wash Nowadays. What used to be one of my favorite things to do is to heckle people, right.

Charles: 1:10:49

I used to love heckling players on the other teams. Nowadays, you try to heckle anybody and there's like 300 people looking at you. Some might think it's funny or whatever, but they're all filming you. And it's like like 300 people looking at you Like some might think it's funny or whatever, but they're all filming you and they're all. It's like this novelty and it's like just so bizarre.

Charles: 1:11:05

It's like back in the day it was, it was an unsanitized like, but people was sanitizing. They expect that people used to dress in their Sunday best. To go to the games Like so it'd be in suit and ties, but it was like. But to go to the games, like so it'd be in suit and ties, but it was like, but they'd be a ruckus in the. I mean, it would be like dirty, dirt and, but they'd be in their suits and ties and it was a totally different experience. That's what I'm trying to say is is that when we're talking about the modern day game versus, then like it's. It's. It's my goal with my other project, with the baseball project, to bring back that unsanitized baseball. That's not so, and I'm not even just talking about the fans, I'm talking about the, the style of baseball on the field today. Um, is is. The game was never broke and it got fixed anyways yeah and so that's my.

Charles: 1:11:52

That is where I am at, that's my. You could summarize my entire the game was never.

Jamie: 1:11:56

Never broke. Exactly. I like that.

Charles: 1:11:59

Whenever you're wondering about my perspective on anything, whenever you're wondering about my perspective on baseball in any regard, with the fans, with the stadiums, with the players, with the game strategy, whatever like that, just that apply. I might as well get that on a wristband that says the game was never broke and it got fixed anyways, and so that is the way I feel about the entire, about every aspect of baseball today.

Jamie: 1:12:23

So I just one more time want to thank everybody for hanging out, appreciate it, looking forward to the next episode. We got, like, some great stuff to talk about and no, that's it Like subscribe. Leave a comment.

Jamie: 1:12:37

Thanks for joining. We're going to go. We're going to go. We're going to go, we're, and no, that's it. Like subscribe. Leave a comment. Thanks for joining. We're gonna go. I love it. We're gonna go, we're gonna go, we're gonna go it's uh detroit city champions.

Charles: 1:12:45

That was a fun show.