Ivory Hunters: History of the Detroit Tigers Scouting and Development - Jack Zeller (pt.4) - Ep 113

What if a city could be crowned the "City of Champions" in a single year? Travel back to Detroit in 1935, a pivotal moment when the Tigers, Lions, Red Wings, and the legendary Joe Louis collectively put the city on the sports map. In this episode, we uncover the recruitment strategies that shaped the Detroit Tigers and contrast their resilience against the backdrop of failing local football teams. We'll reveal the intriguing business tactics of the 1880s team owners who wielded baseball as a tool to sell beer, offering a colorful glimpse into the early days of America's pastime.

Discover the fascinating stories behind Detroit's rise as a sports powerhouse, particularly through the lens of scouts like Jack Zeller. We discuss the term "ivory hunters" from the 1800s, likening the relentless search for raw talent to hunting elephants for ivory. Zeller's influence was instrumental in molding the 1935 Detroit Tigers into a championship team, embedding the Tigers, Lions, and Red Wings deeply into Detroit's cultural identity. This segment explores how these teams have remained essential parts of the city's soul, while others have faded away.

Lastly, we reflect on the current state of baseball, making stark comparisons between the affiliate minor league and independent teams. Our conversation highlights the peculiar landscape of modern baseball, where marketing antics often overshadow the competitive nature of the sport. Dive deep into the legacy of Jack Zeller, his career trajectory, and the significant scandal that shook the Detroit Tigers, all while celebrating Detroit's enduring sports achievements. Join the dialogue, share your thoughts, and help us keep the vibrant history of Detroit sports alive!

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Transcript

Announcer: 0:00

1935 the Lions win the NFL championship, the Detroit Tigers take the World Series, the Red Wings bring home Lord Stanley's Cup, joe Louis begins his rise to world domination. This transforms the Motor City into Detroit city of champions.

Jamie Flanagan: 0:22

Crack of the bat. We are back to to it. We're back to baseball, back to baseball, and we are talking about the Tigers and their recruiting habits. On Detroit City of Champions podcast.

Charles Avison: 0:36

This is like the foundational time of Detroit Tiger, the entire Detroit Tiger minor league system.

Jamie Flanagan: 0:43

Yeah.

Charles Avison: 0:43

And it's you know and this is an interesting time, I talked about it before Obviously we're at episode 113. So, just on the concept that it's 113 episodes to talk about one year, this is a foundational epic.

Jamie Flanagan: 1:04

Foundational epic in detroit, sports history now here's something I found interesting, because you you've talked about how, um you know, the red wings went through, uh, several name changes. Um prior to becoming the red wings, um, were they different teams? Was it all full new team or?

Jamie Flanagan: 1:22

was it the same team, just a name change yeah, okay, but the lions, uh, the lions were the spartans transported, transplanted here, uh, in 34, because of how well the the tigers did in 34, uh, but there were two or three failed teams before that, yeah, uh, so why were? Why were the tigers able to? Because the they had some success prior to 35. Yeah, they had some good stuff, but there were some lean years, so how were they able to make it through when the football teams couldn't and folded, how were the Tigers able to make it through?

Charles Avison: 2:02

The answer to that question is barely Okay is able to make it through. Okay, the answer to that question is barely Okay, because you had it at first of all. You had the Detroit Wolverines. In the late 1800s they won a baseball championship Okay, it wasn't the World Series, it was 1888. And they had the 1880s baseball. Baseball was massive, yeah, and so the Detroit Wolverines. What you basically had was you. You had you. You basically had a team of like a bunch of mercenaries that were all like that, that's kind of how the 1880s baseball was you had. You had basically that's how, like, that's kind of the rise of professional baseball was that you just had guys who like had all these these different cities that they like, when one city was like kind of coming up in the world, they everybody. Baseball was such a majorly like, it was such a driving force in the 1880s okay that's why I say it's the 1800s.

Charles Avison: 2:58

Late 1800s is my favorite time in american history they called it the.

Charles Avison: 3:01

Gilded Age and there's. It's when you actually, if you want to read, like a fascinating time of just American history in general, but you know, sports as a part of that, the 1880s, late 1800s was just one of the most fascinating eras of baseball. That's why I say like. I mean that's baseball. The way they played in the 1800s, that was baseball. It was like, and the way that they did it was actually somewhat reminiscent of today. You had, like, you had these mercenaries, you had these guys that would demonstrate their absolute superiority and then you would have, like, some city coming up in the world and some guy that was, you know, building a team, like he had like. Then you would have some city coming up in the world and some guy that was building the team, for instance, one of the owners. I think it was the St Louis Browns, the guy that was actually the founder of what would become the Cardinals. I believe that's who the guy was. But he basically bought a baseball team so that he could sell beer.

Jamie Flanagan: 4:05

That was the main thing. He owned a bar and brewery. I think that's what they do now. I'm pretty much 90% sure.

Charles Avison: 4:11

But it was like they didn't just sell beer at the games. It was like he bought a team so that he could sell beer to the fans.

Jamie Flanagan: 4:17

That was the whole, thing, right right.

Charles Avison: 4:19

Because he's like, why have a little bar and then when I can have a big bar and have live entertainment of a baseball game, like 100 games a year or whatever. That was his mentality. But he's like, well, they're not going to come.

Jamie Flanagan: 4:31

That guy's a genius.

Charles Avison: 4:32

Yeah, well, that's what I mean when you read about his story. It's amazing because he's like but I can't just have a crappy team, I've got to have a team that everybody loves. So he'd go out there and buy all the best players that you could possibly get your hands on. What beer was it? I think that he was the forerunner of that's what I'm saying. It was the Cardinals, because I think it was. It might not have been Augustus Bush, but it was like somebody that was associated. I forget his name all the time. That's my eternal shame that I forget his name?

Jamie Flanagan: 5:00

Was it Adolf?

Charles Avison: 5:01

No, it wasn't that, but you know what it might have been.

Jamie Flanagan: 5:04

Actually, I didn't mention it, coors, it was Adolf Coors.

Charles Avison: 5:07

It wasn't Coors.

Jamie Flanagan: 5:08

It was something else, but he was a guy that was sort of associated with it and his story is just messed up. Yeah, but it was.

Charles Avison: 5:17

Adolf Coors and his story is just, but I'm pretty sure that he was the they started a Browns team across the way. Some story like that I forget.

Jamie Flanagan: 5:25

All right, we'll have to get a six-pack of that beer from 1880, and it'll be tasty, yeah, and we'll talk about that too.

Charles Avison: 5:34

So the answer to kind of go back to your question is Detroit, kind of did that.

Jamie Flanagan: 5:41

They basically brought in a bunch of guys who were studs.

Charles Avison: 5:43

We had some stellar players back in the day but the 1880s they built like a super team and then they won that world championship. They would cross the country playing all these teams, all these different games, and then they won the championship that year, the 1880s. And then that team, like two years later some other team came along and was like, hey, we want all these guys. And so they went and played for another team and then the Wolverines just became crap and then they folded and so they lost their team. So for the Tigers you had the National League, which the Wolverines were in. That that's what they won.

Charles Avison: 6:15

And then there was just an incredible amount of flux in the National League. There's all these different cities that were coming and going Detroit was one of them and then you had um, then you had the. Then that you, at one point you had um, you had a competition running against. They're like, well, let's, because what happened was the national league. They started to get like, they started to sort of crystallize into this, uh, this dominant power, and there was like a certain rigid cities that were there's like new york, chicago, boston, like all the sort of main eastern cities.

Charles Avison: 6:47

But then you had Van Johnson come along and he was like he had a AAA team, he had a AAA league that he owned, and so he was like grabbing all these cities that the National League wouldn't let into their system.

Jamie Flanagan: 7:02

Oh, okay.

Charles Avison: 7:03

And then he started adding teams in the cities that the National League was already in to compete directly Red Sox, white Sox, kind of like the NFL. Kind of like the NFL, how the NFL started because the NFL wouldn't let anybody in, and so they created the AFL. Screw you guys.

Jamie Flanagan: 7:21

Yeah, we're starting our own league.

Charles Avison: 7:22

They created the AFL. Screw you guys. Yeah, we're starting our own league. Yeah, and so then they started going to war with the National League and bringing all these players into what they called the American League.

Jamie Flanagan: 7:31

Yeah.

Charles Avison: 7:31

And then the World Series. Because the American League got so good because they were literally taking players from the National League and they had teams in Chicago and New York and all this. It was 1901 when they found the American League. And then you actually had, uh, the american league challenged the national league and say we're, we want a world series, just like the nfl, where the afc challenged, there was the afl challenge, the nfl, and then the first superbowl was really a battle between two different leagues. Okay, you know, I mean, that was really the whole thing. And so the same thing with the american and national league, where they challenge each other and they that was what you know they were and that was like these are legit two teams going against you. Let's build a bigger league, you know, let's form together.

Charles Avison: 8:08

So you had american league, national league and then, but then you had like one year's, and I think it was 1905, that, um, uh, john mcgraw was a new york, um, new york giants manager for the national league and he, like, wouldn't even play the american leagues, like they're inferior, and so they were like you, you know, you went. It was like one of the worst thing, one of like he still talked about to this day for not, for that was like the only world series that was never played. Yeah, because he was like we're not even gonna play them. They're like they're too weak compared to us, we're so good. And then, but nobody accepted that they're like dude, you, you know, you wimped out on a game that everybody wanted to see. Yeah, so anyways, um, as far as how the Tigers stuck with it was. In short, you had a major talent discovery in the early 1900s, which was Ty Cobb.

Jamie Flanagan: 8:48

Right.

Charles Avison: 8:49

Who became very quickly the best player in all of baseball.

Jamie Flanagan: 8:53

Yeah.

Charles Avison: 8:54

Certainly the most fascinating player in all of baseball.

Jamie Flanagan: 8:56

Yeah.

Charles Avison: 8:56

And the stories of Cobb are still told to this day. And so for the Tigers they had this new superstar, young talent who came into this I believe it was 1905 when he joined the Tigers and just immediately was like one of the greatest players in the game, one of the most interesting, fascinating, dynamic players who's ever played baseball, and he was on the Detroit team. And so they went to three straight World Series 1907, 1908, 1909. They lost to the Chicago Cubs the first two and then to the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1909. But the rest of the time the Tigers were still competitive. They didn't go to another World Series again until 1934. But they were still interesting and Cobb was with the Tigers until 1926. Cobb, he was there for the next 21 years, and so that's a pretty long gap to bridge You're talking about. How did they survive? Well, they had Cobb. You know they had the most fascinating player in the game.

Jamie Flanagan: 9:49

Well, there you go. Yeah, so as long as you're filling seats, yeah, that's what I mean. So I mean they weren't winning the championships, but they were an interesting team, Absolutely.

Charles Avison: 10:11

And even when they weren was about even Cobb left in 26, like they discovered another superstar in Charlie Geringer out of nowhere.

Jamie Flanagan: 10:18

The guy was a super young and all of a sudden.

Charles Avison: 10:21

So he was kind of like the heir to Ty Cobbb and you actually had George Moriarty, who we talked about, one of my favorite guys, and Moriarty became the manager of the team for a couple of years with Charlie Geringer as their new star. So they had a marketable manager in Moriarty who was a fan favorite, and then you had Geringer as one of the superstars for several years. So that takes you all the way through that's how they get 28.

Jamie Flanagan: 10:46

They get through through that hump of between cob, you know, but challenging, yeah, but the thing is, you know, that takes you to about 1928 and from that point, however, that's when the tigers started to deteriorate because that they were awful. That was. That was part of the story. There was like the owner was like well, I might just pull the plug on it.

Charles Avison: 11:07

The attendance in 1933 was I mean, and again, when the Great Depression hit, you had, you know, the Tigers had already been terrible. They had no, they had Geringer, but they had no. But Geringer was very, you know, he had virtually no personality. They called him a mechanical man because he was very quiet. But I mean, he was an elite player but there was no flash. He didn't have the sort of swagger of a Cobb or anything like this. He was just an automatic machine workman star where he was just consistently excellent every single day and the rest of the guys were crap. He'd have a couple handful of guys who were decent from year to year, but otherwise they were very low, very low talent, like second division, like load, you know, always finishing the bottom half of the league every single year and so, um, you know that. So that's where they were. It's 1933.

Charles Avison: 11:56

By 1933 the tigers had, uh, they were, um, they, their attendance in 1933 uh, matched what they had done in 1907, when their ballpark was only seated like 16,000 or something you know I mean so I mean, and so that's what I mean so they, so their, their attendance was terrible as the middle of the Great Depression and I said like I said in the book, like fans in the middle of the Great Depression Detroit's the hardest hit city in the in the country fans had a heck of a lot better ways to spend their time and money than to go watch a bunch of losers on the field who reminded them of their own situation on a daily basis.

Charles Avison: 12:27

Yeah, so that's where you're at and that's why this is like. So what we're talking about is, I think, pretty important, because this is what's going on behind the scenes.

Jamie Flanagan: 12:37

Yeah, so the ivory hunters.

Charles Avison: 12:39

Yeah, so again, I know you're explaining this, so why are we?

Jamie Flanagan: 12:41

calling this? Why do you call this the ivory?

Charles Avison: 12:43

hunters Well, I call it because that's what they call it in the newspapers. When they did their, you know they had a lot of whenever they talked about these different, so they were out searching for raw talent. Yeah, like ivory, and they called them ivory hunters. Yeah, like you know, you're hunting elephants, and that was a common term in the 1800s there for the baseball scouts what these guys are calling it.

Jamie Flanagan: 13:05

So I'm just, yeah, yeah, I just ivory hunters, because you're that's, you know you're looking for the raw ivory so they can turn into piano keys and stuff like this.

Charles Avison: 13:08

Yeah, yeah, like key chains and whatever it is, you know they, but they're looking for the raw ivory to send back. Yeah so, yeah, so they're. So this is like the so, but what again? What's interesting is what's interesting? Just one more element of the of, of this, of this, which sort of validates this entire show and this entire emphasis on this year and this time period is again, this is the time If you are a Detroit sports fan, if you love Detroit sports. This is the era that Detroit sports was born.

Jamie Flanagan: 13:43

There's the undisputable.

Charles Avison: 13:44

You can sit there and say well Ty. Cobb was a huge guy. Yes, ty Cobb was an important player. This is the era that Detroit sports was born, undisputable. You can sit there and say, well, ty Cobb was a huge guy. Yes, ty Cobb was an important player, but that's not when Detroit sports were born. That was when the Tigers were born. That was when this concert was. That's when the Tigers were developed as a legitimate major league organization, but that's not when Detroit sports as a whole was born.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:02

I did not equate Ty Cobb with Detroit baseball.

Charles Avison: 14:06

Oh, big time I didn't, I didn't, I didn't.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:09

Again, as a bit of a novice, I didn't until we started doing this and I'm sure there's people like me that are, you know, dumb? Well, no, I'm dumb, but what?

Charles Avison: 14:23

I'm saying is that in the hit, whenever people are talking, this is, this is like you know, again, sort of back to the you know, to the, to the show as a you know as a whole, is you know, whenever people are talking about the history of detroit sports, cob is a central figure in the conversation but the thing about cob is you, what you usually talk about, is you have, you have ty cob.

Charles Avison: 14:44

There's so much more. Exactly, you have Ty Cobb and then it jumps all the way up to the 68 Tigers. It just warps, speeds ahead. You might see somebody talk about Hal Neuhauser, but that was in World War.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:56

II. Oh, and they skip all the 35s. Oh, it's completely forgotten. They skip it Every once in a great while. In a book you might see a picture or something of Mickey Cochran just a photo of him saying oh, mickey was great and these guys were so important to the city and so important to why our city is amazing.

Charles Avison: 15:13

This is the era in which the entire landscape of Detroit sports as a cultural phenomena in this city. This is the era in which it was born, phenomena in this city. This is the era in which it was born. You have like, still to this day, you have all these other cities and all this. Every other city, at one point or another, has either lost a team or changed the name of a team.

Charles Avison: 15:32

I heard somebody the other day I had this one time, I mentioned this to somebody. They're like no, what about Chicago? They have never lost a team. I'm like, yeah, they did. They lost to Chicago Cardinals and. And they're like well, yeah, but they still retain the Bears, and that's true. But what I'm saying is you have this. But what I'm saying is that the four major teams that were in this city, or the three major teams the Tigers, lions, red Wings that were in this city, were etched firmly into the cultural fabric of Detroit. They were not just etched, they were woven in, they were carved into the very soul of what is Detroit and what is Detroit sports.

Jamie Flanagan: 16:09

This was the time. At this point, they could not not exist. Yes, like right now, they could not just oh, we're going to close the doors, but we take it for granted. Like your favorite team there in your expos right.

Charles Avison: 16:23

Yeah, yeah, exactly. These teams are not going to leave. These are cultural fabrics, cultural frameworks.

Jamie Flanagan: 16:31

It's, ah, the Winnipeg Jets, not so much Exactly Gone, exactly Right, but I don't think they could not not exist to use way too many negatives for a news teacher in one sentence. But so we're talking to Jack, is it Jack Zeller? Jack Zeller, yeah so we're talking about the ivory hunters. We're talking about the scouts.

Charles Avison: 16:49

So this is what's going on. What's the time frame?

Jamie Flanagan: 16:51

So we're talking 1935 is when the city of champions happened, and when is Jack's time? It's 1935. They're all. It's Jack.

Charles Avison: 17:06

All these guys are yeah, oh, okay, fair play. So we're talking a little bit about before and after their life story. A little bit. I thought we were building-.

Jamie Flanagan: 17:08

But it's all 35. Okay, this is 35. Okay so, Jack Zeller Every one of these guys had a role in the development of the 1935. Tigers. Oh, okay, absolutely, we're part four and I just went-.

Charles Avison: 17:19

But some of them we're on part four, forgetting here, but they've been here for a while.

Jamie Flanagan: 17:22

They've all were part of the 35s.

Charles Avison: 17:23

They're behind the scenes. These are the guys that were finding the ivory that formed the 1935 Detroit Tigers World Series championships.

Jamie Flanagan: 17:36

Why it happened? Alright.

Charles Avison: 17:37

Yeah, these are the guys behind the scenes that were doing it. Some of them started years prior and some of them stayed with the team for years later.

Jamie Flanagan: 17:44

So we're talking about Jack today, yeah.

Charles Avison: 17:47

And so it's just to refresh the memory that the way that the Tigers scouting again. Another thing to refresh the memory on is that this is the era, Besides this being the formative foundation of the Tigers and of their entire minor league system, this is also the birth of what we call the farm system of today. The way that the farm system is laid out today that we just accept is just like. This is how it's always been. It hasn't always been like where you have the triple A, double A, single A. It has not always been like that. There was actually a time before that it did not exist, and this is the era in which the beginning of those systems were being built. Okay, so this is like a formative era for baseball as a whole. As well as you know the tigers and these are the men who built the tigers version of that farm system and laid the first foundation for how that farm system would event you.

Jamie Flanagan: 18:43

So where do the Savannah bananas fall into?

Charles Avison: 18:45

They don't fall in. I don't talk about them. No, I don't talk. I know you don't. I'm trying to trigger you. You're trying to trigger me. I'm going to walk out of here right now. I'm gaslighting you.

Jamie Flanagan: 18:54

I'm gaslighting you on the bananas man. Just for everybody else, we were talking about that guy selling beer and filling seats and fill in seats. Yeah, same thing.

Charles Avison: 19:03

The thing about it is, let me just, I'm going to go and deviate on this topic.

Jamie Flanagan: 19:07

Just so everybody knows where I stand on this.

Charles Avison: 19:09

Because if people have heard me talk about baseball before, I do have another show where I talk about it, but I haven't done an episode in a while. But my belief about baseball thus far, just to crystallize my perspective and why, it's a sort of inside joke here is this idea that I think that baseball, minor league baseball, is basically dead, like baseball itself.

Charles Avison: 19:30

Today you have a fraction of all professional teams that actually play legitimate, competitive baseball in this world. It is a small fraction Minor league baseball is think about it like are there's two different types of minor league baseball. You have affiliate baseball, which the player, the teams, exist solely for developing players for the major leagues. And then you have independent baseball, in which the players are paid paid by the owners of the team, and so they're just completely independent. They're not actually directly linked to any major league team.

Charles Avison: 20:01

Well, the problem with affiliate baseball is that that the players because they're that the players, because the players are paid for by the major league teams, so that means that the major league teams control them as well, which means at any given moment they can be promoted, demoted, traded or anything. So one week a team can be really good and then the next week a team can be really bad, and so what it leads to is a situation in which the teams cannot market the wire-to-wire competitive baseball like in the major leagues, where you can't say like, oh, I hope my team is good this year and if you have any hope whatsoever that you have some great player or great pitchers that come in. But all of a sudden the team is terrible. Two weeks in?

Jamie Flanagan: 20:41

And is that AAA? That's every level? Is that it's every?

Charles Avison: 20:45

level of affiliate baseball. So if a team is connected to a major league team in any concept that team at any given moment, it's all wheeling and dealing. So what it means is these affiliate teams have to figure out because they can't market competitive baseball.

Jamie Flanagan: 20:58

It's a bullpen, it's just a bullpen.

Charles Avison: 20:59

Because they can't market competitive baseball. They have to market the gags, giveaways and gimmicks, as well as the baseball cathedrals in which they play. So it's a novelty, it's a carnival act. It's a carnival act in which it's a baseball-themed carnival is what it is.

Charles Avison: 21:16

I mean, the players are trying to win but they can't market competitive baseball. It is not the same, and even the minor league owners themselves will admit that it's not competitive baseball. It's an entertainment diversion. But the interesting thing is, the thing that's so bizarre is that the independent league teams, which are the teams that should be marketing competitive baseball, because they don't owe the major league players anything, they're not getting paid by the major leagues.

Charles Avison: 21:40

They should be able to market competitive baseball like it was back in the 1800s or 1900s, where they're like our city.

Jamie Flanagan: 21:46

They could actually even say hey, how about you give us a game and we see how we do?

Charles Avison: 21:52

They could bet a silver trophy full of silver dollars on a game or something right. And the players all win and they hype some game up between the Chicago team versus the Wisconsin team or something like this, where you're having rival cities. But they don't do that. They don't do that.

Jamie Flanagan: 22:05

You got to do it, you got to do it, you got to do it. You play it in Vegas and do a tray full of silver dollars.

Charles Avison: 22:11

They see the affiliate teams marketing the gags, giveaways and gimmicks, as well as the cathedrals in which they play, and they say that's the marketing direction that we should go into. But they're operating at a massive disadvantage to the affiliates because they have to pay their players Long and short of it. They are not taking advantage of the main marketing avenue of which they have, which is that they're the only ones that can market competitive baseball wire to wire like a major league team can. So, as a result, minor league baseball has turned into a gags, gimmicks and giveaways and carnival act. It's not baseball. It's not the baseball in the old, truest, purest sense of the word. And the same thing with major league baseball Half the teams. The entire mentality of major league baseball is if you think you have a chance at the World Series, then go for it, spend money, get the players you need. But if you don't think you're going to make it to the World Series, then it's better off just selling off all your talent, dumping it all and having the lowest payroll in the game so you're still getting your share of TV revenue and making more money as a losing team than being mediocre. The worst place to be in Major League Baseball is mediocre. It's either better to be really good or really bad. It's not anything in the middle. As a result, half of major league baseball makes very little effort to win, if any effort.

Charles Avison: 23:33

Let's add it all up. Then let's add it all up. You have affiliate baseball teams, which make up 75% of minor league baseball. Then you have independent baseball teams make up 25%. With all of them combined, it's 100%. That are gags, gimmicks and giveaways, doing the somersaults on the field and whatever they're doing, so they aren't trying to win. Then you have half of Major League Baseball that aren't trying to win. So what you're dealing with now is that of the 237-odd professional teams in America, you've got about 20 that are actually making any effort which you're trying to win. So back to the answer to the Savannah Bananas is where is the winning baseball? Where is the baseball where Ty Cobb once said that Ty Cobb would talk about crawling through glass to win a baseball game, or Mickey Cochran, who would do anything to win a baseball game? Like I say, baseball has been a reflection of American culture for the longest time. It's sort of like they say baseball is America.

Charles Avison: 24:32

That's funny, it's like reflects America and all you have to do to see a large swath of America is.

Jamie Flanagan: 24:38

look at the game today. If you look at America now, it's a TikTok culture, it's a social media. It's a flash in the pan and the baseball is mimicking that, or vice versa?

Charles Avison: 24:54

Yeah, they're doing stunts to try to get a viral video.

Jamie Flanagan: 24:56

Interesting.

Charles Avison: 24:57

It's like, look, if that's what you're into, I mean, I guess that's what you're into. But the question I have about if that's what people are into is have you ever really been exposed to the opposite side? Have you been exposed to baseball in which the game was about the entire season? The game was about from wire to wire trying to win. That's why I think the affiliate system was one of the worst things that ever happened to baseball. Everybody credits.

Jamie Flanagan: 25:21

Branch.

Charles Avison: 25:21

Rickey with this incredible invention the affiliate system. But it's like he derived an advantage initially, but once everybody else started doing it, there was no more advantage. There's no advantage to anybody in the minor leagues. They all do the same thing.

Jamie Flanagan: 25:34

Tell me about Jack, right, because Jack was one of these ivory hunters.

Charles Avison: 25:37

Well, he's the longest short of it. Jack's the one that built the minor league system of the Tigers.

Jamie Flanagan: 25:42

That's who we're talking about today. All right, so tell me about Jack. Yeah, so, jack, I keep getting you sidetracked. Well, you know how to trigger me, Jamie.

Charles Avison: 25:51

We're a half hour in. We haven't talked about Jack yet. Well, this is a variety show anyway.

Jamie Flanagan: 25:55

We're talking about a variety of topics I have not nodded off once.

Charles Avison: 25:59

Good, you're put guardrails on my restrictions to my conversational ability. Not at all.

Jamie Flanagan: 26:04

Jamie's trying to restrain me? Not at all. Oh shoot, I didn't upload those pictures. All right, you keep talking, I love to upload pictures.

Charles Avison: 26:09

You blew it.

Jamie Flanagan: 26:14

Now we've got to start the whole show all over again, Jamie, oh crap.

Charles Avison: 26:17

Do the whole show, all right.

Jamie Flanagan: 26:18

Call it off, jamie, call it off, wave we're not going to start over, no, oh okay, this was gold. I can redo everything. I just said there's no way to do it again. Oh, you don't want to do it again, there's no way to do it again. All you got to do is mention that Savannah Bananas are a smart team and I'll get right back into it.

Charles Avison: 26:33

I'll just trigger me again, Jamie.

Jamie Flanagan: 26:35

I will. I'll be equally triggered with the mention of it throw that at me all the time they go.

Charles Avison: 26:40

oh, did you see the Savannah Bananas? I'm like dude, don't even mention it to me.

Jamie Flanagan: 26:43

Oh, you're into like a.

Charles Avison: 26:45

No, yeah, they get that all just in a random conversation, Like, oh, you're into baseball, minor league baseball.

Jamie Flanagan: 26:50

I'm like yeah, how about them? Savannah Bananas, how about them Like?

Charles Avison: 26:52

that's Don't even say that to me Don't.

Charles Avison: 26:55

Don't. Anyways, so is a major. We've talked about a series of major pieces that have built the Tigers so far, but Jack Zell is one of these. Again, the Tigers the way that they divided their territory for scouting and development was you had your talent, you had your scouts and the main people that ran their organization east of the Mississippi. So the Mississippi River was the dividing line, so east of the Mississippi was all the players and scouts that we've was the dividing line, and so it was East of the Mississippi was all the players and you know scouts and that we've talked about thus far. And then West of the Mississippi is the.

Charles Avison: 27:30

Is who you, who we're dealing with today, which is Jack Zeller, who was in charge of the entire department. We'll talk about some of the scouts and some of the coaches and stuff. There's some big names there, but the. But the main guy that we're talking about today is Jack Zeller, who is just like he, like he's got I mean he's got this great story about, like how he got into baseball.

Charles Avison: 27:52

He was basically just like overall, just a just a smart and accomplished individual who just like his life route, like he was a baseball.

Charles Avison: 28:00

He was a minor league baseball player and his like sort of business pursuits and the avenues in which he was, in which his life was, you know, moving forward, conveyed him into the game and he was just a talented person that could basically do anything that he put his mind to. And once the like sort of life, sort of uh, directed him into baseball, then he stuck with that and became outstanding at you know, at uh you at working with the Tigers and being a scout and then a scouting director, and then eventually he became really what you could classify as the Tigers' first general manager. Oh, okay, you could say, technically Mickey Cochran was their first general manager. He was their general manager from 1936 to 1938. Technically he was their first general manager, but the thing is mickey was also their coach and also their catcher. So in the traditional sense of the word, that mickey was more of like a manager who decided which players were going to be on his team.

Charles Avison: 28:55

Yeah, that was, that was in essence the his role as a gm, but in the but in the traditional sense, where you've got an executive that's up in the front office, that's's behind a desk making calls and doing all that the traditional way we look at a GM. Then Jack Zeller was the first.

Jamie Flanagan: 29:11

Yeah, there's like a bronze trophy of Sylvester Stallone, rocky Bilboa in Philly we need. There should be a bronze trophy of Mickey.

Charles Avison: 29:22

Oh, 100%. A bronze statue, 100%. You know Well, they got a sculpture at Comerica Park. They don't even have his number retired there. Why would they build him a bronze statue? It should be. No, his number is. It should be he's so important, I know. I mean to the city.

Jamie Flanagan: 29:35

I mean like the Joe Louis Fist, I mean sports machine. That it is Well the final stamp.

Charles Avison: 29:50

Besides the huge argument that we've already made, the entire argument of it, I wanted the final exclamation point to.

Charles Avison: 29:56

Mickey is that Mickey Cochran. When he went into the Hall of Fame he had won two World Series with the A's. He went to a third World Series with the A's. We went to three World Series with the A's, won two. Was an MVP with the A's. Had a much longer career with the A's. Had a much longer career with the A's I think it was eight years with the A's. He only had, I think, four or five with the Tigers.

Charles Avison: 30:15

So, he played substantially longer and had substantially more accomplishments because he went to two World Series with the Tigers and won one. He did win MVP with the Tigers. So he basically did what he did with Detroit, but just a little bit less than he did with the A's. Yet he went into the Hall of Fame as a Tiger did with the A's, yet he went into the Hall of Fame as a Tiger. You're only allowed to wear one hat in the Hall of Fame and he went in wearing a Tiger hat.

Charles Avison: 30:35

So, where is the reciprocal respect shown to Mickey? Cochran Doesn't exist. You can say his name is on the hallowed name wall but his number isn't retired. His number isn't retired, which is like the legendary thing where nobody's allowed to wear the number again.

Jamie Flanagan: 30:52

Alright, sorry, I digress. You were talking about Mickey and I was thinking about that. Whenever you hear Mickey, it's worth it.

Charles Avison: 30:58

No, I give you respect because whenever you hear Mickey's name, I mean that's the revered presence that Mickey deserves. Is that when his name is mentioned, it's worth the pause to put that briefcase in Jamie?

Jamie Flanagan: 31:12

So I respect you for even diverting it, but that's why we do the show, because it's part of that underappreciated story that should be appreciated Anyway.

Charles Avison: 31:23

But it's worth the aside, and I appreciate you mentioning giving them a little bit of love to Mickey real quick, because we'll talk about him all the time, love it, so anyways. So Jack Zeller, let me just read his little story here, because you're not going to see this anywhere else. There is Wikipedia articles. There is aspects of his life online. You can see it.

Charles Avison: 31:44

But you're not going to hear this. This is only the book. This is like literally a story. Actually I take that back. This is an excerpt out of. It's not on the line but it's an excerpt out of Fred Lieb's book on the Detroit Tigers which I believe was written in the 19 like 51 or something like that it was written so it was like 51.

Charles Avison: 32:03

So he's like looking back on Jack's and anybody that's looking for baseball history. If you're looking for some real baseball history and you're looking for like a concise place to look, look no further than fred lieb. He's got an entire series on all of the major teams. He's got the phillies, he's got the a's, he's got every like major team. And that guy was there. He knew he was a sports writer the entire time for the early night, the late 1800s, early 1900s, and all of his books are a reflection of his remembrances of the history. He did the history of each team and he was a guy that was there. So his book like if you haven't read the Fred Lee book on the Detroit Tigers and you're a.

Charles Avison: 32:40

Tiger fan, you're not studying it.

Jamie Flanagan: 32:45

Get yourself down to your public library and pick that up.

Charles Avison: 32:47

It is an essential component of Detroit Tiger history is to read Fred Lee's history of the Detroit Tigers. So that's where this excerpt comes from, and so it shows you a sign of the respect of the importance of Jack Zeller that Fred Lieb has got an extensive description of his life story. All right, right, so this is by Fred Lieb. Tell me about Jackie Boyle. All right, so bald as Frank Navin. Zeller is taller and chunkier than the former aesthetic-looking Tiger owner. In fact, jack was a pretty husky athlete in his day. His career in organized baseball was as varied as that of Ed Barrow, the early Detroit manager and later Yankee president. Jack has been a pitcher manager, owner of a minor league club at 25, a lieutenant in World War I, a government auditor, an oil man scout, minor league chain director and then head of baseball's biggest moneymaker.

Charles Avison: 33:37

Zeller was born in St Louis, a town long famous for turning out good ballplayers. His father owned a bookstore there and as a kid Jack used to browse through his dad's books and magazines. This early experience in the Zeller bookshop was the foundation for his taste for substantial reading, and there have been few better-informed men in baseball than Jack Zeller. So this next chunk I'm going to save a little bit of time and kind of warp speed through this Go go. It lists a ton of different teams he played for. In fact it's a pretty good summary on Wikipedia just to fill this gap because it's a fairly extensive thing. But I do want to mention his minor league career, his baseball career.

Charles Avison: 34:12

But Wikipedia just kind of goes through the dates because, it's like he tells stories about a couple things, which anyways. So here's his playing career. It says he only began his baseball career in 1901 playing at Forest Park in St Louis. A pitcher, he joined the semi-pro trolley league and then in 1903 was the Missouri Valley League playing for the J joplin miners and joplin and sedalia gold bugs and sedalia. After playing in colorado, new york, in 1905, he moved up to the minor league playing for haverhill in new in the new england league. After an arm injury he was quickly released by the team and went back to new york where he played first base and managed bath beach, an independent team in brooklyn that played on Sunday. So after three years there he purchased half of the Springfield Ponies in the Connecticut League. So that's where we're going to pick back up, because it's like this huge thing.

Charles Avison: 35:01

But I want to connect that he had this huge minor league baseball career that he didn't really make the majors but he played for years.

Charles Avison: 35:08

All right, so to turn back in. So Jack turned east in a 1904 pitch for providence and schenectady. He had a wealth of speed and still thinks he might have made his niche as a pitcher if he hadn't ruined his arm early in the season of 1905. Zeller then went into business in new york and kept up the kept up the baseball touch by playing first base for the resort team at bath beach. We mentioned that in our. But the real professional game was in his blood and in 1908 he purchased half interest in Springfield Massachusetts club in the new England league. That's where we left off. It made him the youngest club owner in the nation. Later he was president, secretary manager and ticket taker of Pittsfield in the same league. In world war one he failed to pass his final examinations at the officer's training camp in Fort Benjamin Harrison at Indianapolis. So he earned his shoulder bars the hard way. He enlisted as a buck private in the regular army and when the war ended he was a second lieutenant and instructor in musketry and bayonet work at Camp Lee, virginia.

Charles Avison: 35:57

After the war the young St Louisian became interested in the oil game of the Southwest, but he still liked to keep that feel for baseball. Paul LeGrave, the business manager of Fort Worth Club, told him, while you're going around signing up oil leases, if you see any players that are worth bringing in, we'd like to know about it. It wasn't long before Jack was a full-time scout. So there it is, that's his thing. He's out doing oil. The guy says, hey, while you're out there, if you see anybody, let me know. So he's scouting out ahead before there was even really scouting no-transcript and Navin liked the way Zeller did business.

Charles Avison: 36:44

I like Zeller because he can say no and no means no. Navin once said you can find so many yes men in this business. Navin suspected some of this of his scouts weren't entirely disinterested in their rec, in their recommendations. He made no direct accusations but felt several of his men were recommending players, often so-called humpty dumpties, and were getting a cut in the purchase money. So in 1926 he reorganized his scout machinery and put jack zeller in charge. From there Jack's stock rose steadily in the Tigers organization until he ran the whole works for Briggs. He's talking about him becoming a GM for Walter Briggs who had succeeded Frank Navin when he passed Right right.

Charles Avison: 37:22

But if you notice, right there, Navin, the problem was that what he's saying is that these scouts were getting finder fees for these players. They signed Right right. So he's sitting there saying they're just after the signing fees and that they're just signing, kind of every old time, Dick and Harry, this guy is great. Exactly, we should bring him up. Oh, it's not my fault that he didn't turn out to be.

Jamie Flanagan: 37:42

Kraft, the guy just didn't do what he was supposed to do.

Charles Avison: 37:44

He was lazy.

Jamie Flanagan: 37:45

He held him back before I have. No, it was good when I saw him Now.

Charles Avison: 37:48

he stinks.

Jamie Flanagan: 37:50

Oh hey, so he's signing a bunch of Humpty Dumpties. Humpty Dumpties. So he brings his Jack Zellner. Have you ever been called a Humpty, a Dumpty? Not me, but I called somebody that today. No, did you.

Charles Avison: 37:59

I called two people that.

Jamie Flanagan: 38:00

I might have done the Humpty dance earlier.

Charles Avison: 38:05

I called one person a Humpty and the other person a Dumpty, so into two.

Jamie Flanagan: 38:09

So, anyways.

Charles Avison: 38:12

So that's how he got, so that's why he brought him in. He's like you're not a yes man, You're going to say no and you're going to basically be my lieutenant man. You're going to be out there cracking heads if they're not signing the right guys. So this is our final bit of the article. Shrewd, substantial, with a thorough knowledge of all the intricacies of baseball, he proved a valuable right bower for owner Briggs, Even though Zeller's manipulation of Tiger material in the minors got him very much into the tousled hair of Judge Landis and cost the Detroit club around 100 ballplayers. So what he's talking about here is he cost them 100 ballplayers.

Jamie Flanagan: 38:45

Yes, what do you mean? He cost them 100 ballplayers. There was a couple things back.

Charles Avison: 38:48

This is another aspect of the evolution of the minor league.

Jamie Flanagan: 38:54

Explain that. I'll explain.

Charles Avison: 38:56

So what was happening was is that so these teams were signing as these farm teams were being built? Right, because when a player signed with a team, back then they were owned, okay. They were like literally frigging property of the team.

Jamie Flanagan: 39:15

Right Right, yeah, you signed your life away. Right yeah, there were people.

Charles Avison: 39:21

Yes, and so what they were doing was like, basically, hoarding players.

Jamie Flanagan: 39:25

Okay.

Charles Avison: 39:25

And so what they were doing was they were literally just going out and just signing up like every single guy that could play baseball like even remotely decent, and then like hey, well, you know, like just like signing like massive numbers of players. And so there was these huge numbers of players that were under, that were owned by these teams and protected on their sort of minor league farm, but they were like there wasn't even enough. There wouldn't be enough if there was like 50 years of time to play games, or none of them would have had been able to all play at the same time.

Jamie Flanagan: 39:56

So they were just literally getting their names on contracts. What do you mean? He cost them 100 players.

Charles Avison: 40:02

Because the way that they were doing it was basically shady. They were just signing up every single guy around and not even and by owning their rights they were locking these guys in, but how did he cost them? Because, commissioner Landis, when he found out about how egregious that some of these teams were doing that behavior, that it was leading the players not even being able to play baseball at, all Was Frank and the Tigers doing this.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:24

Yes, that's what he's saying, jack.

Charles Avison: 40:25

Zeller was one of the main guys doing this.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:29

I got a couple players in this coat pocket Branch Rickey was doing it too. I got a couple players in this pocket Branch Rickey was doing it too. I got a couple players in this pocket Branch Rickey was doing it too.

Charles Avison: 40:35

I got a couple in my suitcase, yeah, and it was leading to players not being able to play at all because there wasn't even enough time in a field or room to let them play. They were just locked up under contract and they couldn't go to other teams, they were just literally perpetually under the Tigers' contract.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:49

I don't understand how that cost them players.

Charles Avison: 40:51

Because they made them forfeit. They basically made them release all the guys.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:55

They got spanked for it.

Charles Avison: 40:57

The commissioner Kennesaw Mount Atlantis made them just release all of their minor league players all of them he let it turn them all into free agents so that they could release like dumping all their fish back into the ocean. You see what I'm saying, but Branch. Rickey, it happened to him too. There was a couple other guys, but Jack Zellers was egregious so he had to cut him loose.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:16

Jackie, yeah, that innocent-looking fella right there, yeah, more nice guy.

Charles Avison: 41:21

He didn't do anything wrong. Jack didn't do anything, good All right, so there's that.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:24

What was the other image there you sent over?

Charles Avison: 41:27

So this? I just found this online before I came. I did a quick little article. You can find it yourself. It's probably easier to read if you look up online yourself People are listening to the audio podcast Again.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:37

Youtube, facebook. The video is up there. There's cool images. What's the headline say?

Charles Avison: 41:41

The headline says if you just type in if you Google Jack Zeller, detroit Tigers.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:45

Climbing the baseball ladder yeah.

Charles Avison: 41:47

I just Googled Jack Zeller, detroit Tigers and you'll see this article. You can read it. I can summarize it pretty quickly.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:52

In American Boy magazine.

Charles Avison: 41:54

Yeah, it's got a cool picture of Jack Zeller in there, but what he says is and see, here's the thing. I'm going to kind of have to disagree with Jack Zeller a little bit on this, because he's subscribed to the Branch Rickey mentality for identifying talent and their main emphasis back then was that what he says in this article, to sort of summarize, is basically what they're looking for is just pure athletic ability.

Charles Avison: 42:19

And they're looking for body style too, so he's. So he's talking about like well, the first thing I look for is like thick legs. Thick legs because it's a long season. A guy with like thick legs can, like you know like, survive a long, majorly grueling season, right's like. And then also I'm looking for a guy who can throw the ball from a you know really far, you know like a guy that can throw hard and throw far, because you can't really teach velocity. So those are the two things that he's like saying in this article and they're like well, what about hitting?

Jamie Flanagan: 42:46

And he's like nah, we'll teach him that, but that's where I disagree.

Charles Avison: 42:50

Agree and disagree with Jack Zeller, because I believe that the legs are one of the most important aspects, especially for a pitcher. A pitcher's legs are probably the most important part of his body. It's not even his arm, it's his legs.

Jamie Flanagan: 43:02

And so I agree with him in that aspect, climbing the baseball ladder and then the deck. The second headline says Jack Zeller, tiger Scout tells what it takes, what it makes.

Charles Avison: 43:14

What makes a major leaguer what it makes a major league player. So he's talking about what he looks for.

Jamie Flanagan: 43:17

That's what's kind of interesting about this article.

Charles Avison: 43:20

He's talking about what he looks for in players.

Jamie Flanagan: 43:23

And granted Jack Zeller. That's helpful for youngers.

Charles Avison: 43:25

Youngins coming on up.

Jamie Flanagan: 43:27

And he talks about.

Charles Avison: 43:28

he's like if you're at a sandlot somewhere, there's probably somebody in the stands sniffing around looking at the talent. He's like you're at a sandlot somewhere, there's probably somebody in the stands sniffing around looking at the tally. He's like you're probably getting watched right now. He's like what we're looking for is guys who can throw and guys who have basically muscular athletic legs because they can handle a long pounding season. That's his thesis and I'm like well, the thing about the legs is for a pitcher, in my opinion, the most important part of a pitcher's body is his legs. That that's, in my opinion, the most important part of a pitcher's body is his legs.

Jamie Flanagan: 43:56

That's like literally the most important thing. My advice is lay off the dames Rock. Yeah, they weaken the legs. Yes, exactly, lay off the dames Rock, mickey knew. Lay off the Mickey knew. Mickey absolutely knew in Rocky he knew exactly what he was talking about.

Charles Avison: 44:11

In recent years, just to give an example about how that might seem simple, like, oh, the legs. Okay, yeah, right, the legs. But here's the thing is that the Tigers had a guy named Michael Fulmer. Detroit Tigers had a guy named Michael Fulmer who was I think he was rookie of the year or something thereabouts. He was like one of the best pitchers in baseball. Like the first couple years of his career Everybody thought he was like the next Tigers ace.

Jamie Flanagan: 44:31

Everybody thought he was like the next Tigers.

Charles Avison: 44:32

Ace, yeah, I remember the name. Yeah, yeah, michael Fulmer was like this stud, and then he had a knee injury. Right, he had a knee injury something wrong with his knee.

Charles Avison: 44:43

And then I remember there's a friend of mine. I have saved the text message because I saw a picture of him in spring training. He's coming off a knee injury, he's in a knee brace. Okay, he's in a knee brace and the Tigers are letting him pitch in spring training with a friggin' knee brace on. I'm texting my friend going. He's cooked, he's in trouble, put a fork in him.

Charles Avison: 45:05

He's got a knee brace on while he's pitching For his legs the most important part of a pitcher's body. I think he had UCLA Tommy Johnson. He blew out his elbow right like a week after I saved the text. I'm like I told you, I called it. The guy's wearing a knee brace in the newspaper photo. I'm going he's done.

Jamie Flanagan: 45:25

He's done and that's for me they're, they don't honor that's for me like.

Charles Avison: 45:28

That's basic, that's basic baseball, like by like. They have all these biometric studies and all this and they're like I'm watching it, looking at a guy in a newspaper article wearing a leg, brace bitch, and going what are you doing? He's done. Because, it forces these players to compensate with other muscles that are not used to being at work and that's what gets destroyed, especially when you're going full velocity, high torque with every muscle in your body trying to sync up with what you've been doing the same.

Charles Avison: 45:59

All of a sudden now you have a totally different muscle. Uh, you know muscle use in your body for throwing a 90 something hour fastball. It's like you're. What are they thinking what? So, anyways, I agree with jack zeller in this article about that. You know pictures. You know that looking for a guy, you know legs are important, whatever but I don't agree, but I don't. I don't agree that hitting is not the most important thing because, like I say from my thesis, is the ability to produce runs.

Charles Avison: 46:21

And create runs with a baseball bat in your hand is the most fundamental aspect of all baseball, and so even pitching. If you have a lineup of players that are consistently just smoking baseballs and driving in runs, your pitching can be mediocre and don't have to even be good at all. Anyways, I disagree with that, but then again I might be wrong, because Jack Zeller helped build the 1935.

Charles Avison: 46:46

Tigers and he also helped. He also was the Tiger GM when they. His career spanned from 1938 to 45, which means that he the 1940 Tigers that won the American League Championship went to the World Series in 1940. They lost against the Reds. He was the guy that built that team, all right. And then 1945, his final year with the Tigers. They won the World Series against the Chicago Cubs and he was the GM that was his last year as the GM.

Charles Avison: 47:11

So he built that team too. So then again, maybe he changed his mind after this article, which came out in 1940, I think I got the date on that American. Boys Jackie Boy 1938 is when he put that out, so I don't know, but the thing is that's what he's suggesting in. This is right, in line with what Branch Rickey was preaching, because they would bring all these and that's how they signed all these players. Because if it was like, oh, he's got thick legs and he's got a good arm, sign him up.

Jamie Flanagan: 47:39

That's how they did it.

Charles Avison: 47:40

It was easy to evaluate those two skills because you're like, oh, he can run fast, oh, he's got thick legs, he's got a muscular build and he can throw the ball a far distance, and so that's like sign them up, you know like, that's how, that's what they were looking for, and then they're like well, we can teach them how to hit. You know that's, that was their mentality, so that's that was. And if everybody, again, if everybody's thinking that way, then somebody's got to win and somebody's got to lose. You know it's no they're.

Jamie Flanagan: 48:06

you know they're all thinking with the same mindset. So somebody's got to win and somebody's got man. That was good stuff.

Charles Avison: 48:12

So that's Jack. Yeah, so he lost. So yeah, he had some good moments and bad moments, but he was the guy that. But he accepted it too when Landis made him cut all those players he was like I deserved it yeah.

Jamie Flanagan: 48:25

I deserved it.

Charles Avison: 48:26

He handled it with dignity.

Jamie Flanagan: 48:28

He's like let's turn the page.

Charles Avison: 48:30

Moving along. Let's turn the page. That was a long time ago, All right cool.

Jamie Flanagan: 48:36

It's like that was like last year, jack, and he's like long time ago, long time Long time, the ancient history.

Charles Avison: 48:40

All right cool.

Jamie Flanagan: 48:41

So I didn't say it up at the top of the podcast, but I think I will say it now. I'm Jamie Flanagan. Charles Aveson. Do all those podcast things in all the podcast places. No, seriously, thanks for joining the party. And yeah, I always forget to do that up top.

Charles Avison: 48:59

Well, it means we have to restart the whole show again.

Jamie Flanagan: 49:01

We get into it and it's like oh, I'm going to jump in. Yeah, I think we could do it. Let's restart, if it wasn't like one in the morning already.

Charles Avison: 49:09

Is it really I got out late? No, it's not I got out late. No, it's not. I know we're getting out late. It's not quite that late.

Jamie Flanagan: 49:14

It will be before we're done kibitzing I know. I'll probably have one more before we go, before the road yeah, but no. So thanks for listening. We do this on a relatively regular basis and putting them out, sharing the story. A whole lot more about the City of Champions Celebrate Champions Day celebrating Detroit. A whole lot more about the city of champions uh, celebrate champions day celebrating detroit. We do it uh 24, 7, 365 days a year. We're all. We're always right here for you. Uh.

Charles Avison: 49:44

Facebook and youtube yeah if anybody ever has any questions too, if anybody's ever got any questions and wants to talk about something that maybe you had a question about, something you saw, or whatever, yeah, you'll throw it in there.

Jamie Flanagan: 49:54

Yeah yeah, I love, we love when like it's great, when like family members comment and stuff, it's like it's so wonderful. So, anyway, thanks for joining the party again, like subscribe all the podcast things, all the podcast places. Uh, we appreciate it and uh, is that it we good, you got anything else I got a lot more you to keep going.

Charles Avison: 50:13

Is that a rhetorical question? I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm cooked.

Jamie Flanagan: 50:16

We're at an hour. You've stayed your hour. Go Go home. Alright, be well. Detroit City Champions the Podcast.