Ivory Hunters: History of the Detroit Tigers Scouting and Development (pt.2) Wish Egan - Ep 111

What if you could walk through Detroit's most glorious sports memories and meet the legends who lived them? This episode takes you on a nostalgic journey back to 1935, the year Detroit earned the title "City of Champions" with victories from the Lions, Tigers, Red Wings, and the meteoric rise of Joe Louis in boxing. Fast forward to the recent Champions Day 2024 celebration at the Detroit Historical Museum, where we share highlights from the event and our lively interactions with fellow enthusiasts of Detroit's rich sports history. From 1950s and 60s wrestling to the inspiring legacy of Eddie Tolan, we cover the storied past that makes Detroit a true sports haven.

Picture yourself at a handprint ceremony with Detroit celebrities like Hugh Perkins, Mickey Redmond, and Greg Kelser. Due to an unexpected delay, I found myself interviewing these icons, leading to some unforgettable conversations. The most touching moment came when Hugh Perkins relived his experience of interviewing Rosa Parks, adding a deeply personal and emotional layer to the event. This chapter captures the sense of community spirit and the behind-the-scenes challenges that turn public events into memorable experiences.

Our exploration doesn't stop there; we delve into the evolution of baseball scouting and player development from the early 1900s to present-day. Highlighting figures like Branch Rickey, Sam Breadon, and Wish Egan, we discuss the transformation of the minor league system and the delayed integration of African-American players in Major League Baseball. We also explore the offerings of Detroitcityofchampions.com, including unique merchandise and handcrafted plaster busts, pondering the potential for expanding our product lineup. Join us as we navigate through these captivating stories and rich histories that define Detroit's illustrious sports legacy.

https://linktr.ee/DetroitCityofChampions

www.DJJamieDetroit.com

www.WearingFunny.com

Transcript

Announcer: 0:01

1935 the lions win the nfl championship, the detroit tigers take the world series, the red wings bring home lord stanley's cup. Joe lewis begins his rise to world domination. This transforms the motor city into detroit city of champion.

Announcer: 0:21

The crack of that bat, we are back at it. Detroit City of Champions. The podcast I'm Jamie Flanagan

Charles Avison: 0:23

Thre crac I'm Charles Avison, hey, it hasn't been like eight weeks. Whatever people If you're just listening to this and you've gone from episode 110 to 111. In my show. We talk every day. Yes, we talk every day. There hasn't been a gap. There hasn't been a gap.

Jamie Flanagan: 0:44

It hasn't been a gap, it's just uh, yeah, but uh, a bunch of stuff happening. It's uh we, we just lived through, uh, champions day in 2024, yeah, and uh there was a big celebration down at the detroit historical museum and uh they really ramped it up this year. Uh, they invited out some, uh quasi celebrities jamie flanagan included, jamie flanagan, uh included.

Jamie Flanagan: 1:09

Uh, so there was another podcast, uh, the detroit history detroit history podcast. Tim kiska, he's, uh, he's a professor at u of m dearborn, uh, my alma mater, and uh, but he, he wasn't teaching there when I was there, but, uh, he's a, he was a free press writer and uh, they do they, they just do detroit stories just, uh, everything, everything, from you know, jay dilla to you know prohibition, uh, just everything, every you know to, from the, from the, from the nain rouge and the, the, the, the, the fires, yeah, of the 1800s, to you know gordie howe bridge. I mean, they do just detroit stories, uh, but they were launching their new uh season and they were talking about, uh, the 1950s and the 1960s, big time wrestling, uh, focus around the story of the sheik uh, and and they had the guy who was the sheik's manager at the end of his career, the Sheik's last manager, and he helped fill in the gaps on the story. So, but that was it. So, but they told the story of big time wrestling in Detroit, which is a big deal.

Jamie Flanagan: 2:15

Big time wrestling in Detroit is, it was a cultural thing. For so many people, my age and a little younger it really set the tone for the wrestling world that came later. Just some amazing stuff happened. They launched their podcast season with that episode. They played the episode and they had some visuals to go with it and talked about it. They interviewed the Sheik's manager there and did a Q&A, that was fun.

Jamie Flanagan: 2:44

Then you got some interviews yourself when they were, when they were done, talking, there was like, well, you know, a good hundred people in the little auditorium down there. It was fun and uh, so I got to I was like they're like hey, and it's champions day and uh, it's all about 1935 and uh, the, the museum people brought me up and I got to talk to those people and I said, you know, I I know nothing about nothing, I go, but I love this story, I love this city and uh, you know, let me tell you one story and I talked a little bit about Eddie Tolan, cool. And uh, I go, you want to talk about Detroit and the Detroit icon, uh, and just this 35 season was that goes unremembered. Uh, you know, did you know that eddie tolan scored six touchdowns in a high school football game? And uh, so you know, that was kind of my, my hook.

Jamie Flanagan: 3:33

You know, the open and close of it, uh, but yeah, so I told the eddie story and then people had things, and then later, um, there was a talk by one of the curators of the museum talking about different aspects of 35. They hit on eddie, uh, and then they really focused on the lions, uh, because the lions did well, sure, this year, uh. And in between that, uh, they invited out, like I said, some quasi detroit celebrities besides me hugh perkins, uh, fox 2, uh, news anchor, uh, just iconic dude, yeah, seriously, he was good, good, good, good people, uh, and then Mickey Redmond, who, uh, one, two, I think, two Stanley cups with the Oilers.

Charles Avison: 4:16

I want to say yeah, but he's been.

Jamie Flanagan: 4:19

Detroit's, but he was a player and so he won two cups and then played for Detroit. And then the Mickey Redman has been the announcer here in Detroit forever. And then the Detroit Pistons. They had the announcer for the Detroit Pistons, Greg.

Charles Avison: 4:36

Kelser.

Jamie Flanagan: 4:38

Greg was there and they have a walk of fame and they put their hands in cement and uh, and they were all they have like a walk of fame, uh, and they put their hands in cement, uh. But the thing was so I was like I was there and I did my bit and I was just going to hang out and pass out flyers and talk to people and had our banners up and I was like, hey, you know we got a podcast, you should listen to us, you know? Yeah, so I was there in the lobby going, hey be my friend.

Charles Avison: 5:00

Well, maybe some of those listeners are listening to us right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah Snagged a couple.

Jamie Flanagan: 5:04

I was like be my friend, please, please, be my friend. And so people were. People were like I was giving away. People were giving away. I was giving away buttons and stickers and it was fun. But so I was like, hey, you know, I told the museum people, tracy and her team, I'm like if you guys need anything, just let me know I'm here. You know if, if, if I can help in any way. You know I appreciate you, including me. You know us in on this and you know I'm glad I'm here. And so I'm upstairs passing out stickers and talking to people and they come up they're like hey, jamie, remember the thing you were saying.

Jamie Flanagan: 5:40

Remember remember, remember, remember that time you said you'd you'd help if we needed help I'm like, yeah, they're like, well, we're doing the handprints downstairs, but the cement is taking forever and we got a whole crowd of people. We're bringing a pa down there. Can you come down and fill the time? Yeah, and I'm like what are you talking about, fill the time? And they're like, well, no, like interview each of the guys when they're doing their handprint, or like right before or right after, and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, I can talk to.

Charles Avison: 6:12

I get to talk to kill perkins and redmond and greg.

Jamie Flanagan: 6:15

I'm like, yeah, okay, I can do that, sure, so I go down there and, uh, rup raj is another. He's a current Fox 2 anchor and he was there and so I'm going and it was taking way too long to ready the cement for each guy, because they said they tried it the previous year and they had four people they were inducting and so they mixed up all the cement and they brought it out. But the first batch of cement was already too hard and it was Chauncey Billups and Chauncey Billups was trying to put his hands in cement Last year, and what day.

Jamie Flanagan: 6:49

Not on Champions Day, I know.

Charles Avison: 6:51

We were there for Champions Day. There was like two people.

Jamie Flanagan: 6:53

I know it was me, you and Chauncey. No, he wasn't there. No, he wasn't.

Charles Avison: 6:57

Chauncey is one of my Detroit sports. Why did I get to meet?

Jamie Flanagan: 7:01

him, I know, but he couldn't put his hands in it. He barely made an impression, so he had to come back another day and redo them.

Charles Avison: 7:07

I'm curious to know what day they did all that. Yeah, it wasn't.

Jamie Flanagan: 7:11

Champions Day. It was around their gala. They do it around their gala fundraising. So the celebrities are there for the gala, sure. So they wanted to make sure the handprints worked. So we're gonna do them one by one, right, but it was taking forever and they're like oh, it'll be like about, you know, 10, 15 minutes. In between. I'm like I can, I can fill 10 15 minutes. I can, I can do that so I'm there, I'm talking to these guys.

Jamie Flanagan: 7:34

It's like 10 minutes, 12 minutes, 15 minutes and there's no cement anywhere and I'm like I'm running out of, I'm running out of stuff, you know, and I'm like I'm looking at the crowd'm running out of stuff, you know, and I'm like I'm looking at the crowd, I'm like all right, anybody, uh, anybody got a question for yule?

Jamie Flanagan: 7:48

yeah, and I'm sure they all sort of want to ask questions well, not so much the other two guys that people like question but uh, uh, uh. But each time I said that it ended up happening with each of the guys and and so when, when I did it with uh, I did it, rup raj was like hey, yeah, I got, I got a question. So I was like, and I was like hey, thank you know, thanks, rup, yeah, sure, well, you know, and then other people ask some stuff, uh, so rup was the only one that asked a question of fuel. It was cool, I, because I asked you like, what was the? What was the most challenging story? Uh, you had to cover uh while you were here in Detroit and and he was like well, he totally skirted the question.

Jamie Flanagan: 8:30

Really he didn't, and he went and he turned it and he turned it to his most, cause that was going to be. My next question was what was the most moving and touching? Uh, and he, so he turned it from challenging to moving and touching. Uh and getting to interview Rosa Parks oh, okay, to moving and touching. Uh, and getting to interview rosa parks oh, okay, uh. And then we talked about, uh, the bus being over at the henry ford and everything. But uh, so yeah. And then I was like I'm, like, I'm out of stuff, I'm out, I'm out did you tell the audience that?

Jamie Flanagan: 8:55

no, I looked and looked at hugh and I went. That's all I got. I kind of shrugged my shoulders. He laughs, I go. Anybody got a question?

Charles Avison: 9:03

to root.

Jamie Flanagan: 9:03

Well, you're standing with a bunch of announcers can't they carry the burden a little bit he did, and, and so those guys you would have thought would have been all like a he'll rip the mic on honey, rip the mic out of my hand and he just went, but he still. He went another five minutes and there was another 10 minutes after before. Yeah, but those guys do it for a living.

Charles Avison: 9:19

The big uh, mickey redmond talks for two hours every single night.

Jamie Flanagan: 9:24

I know, I know, I know, but it was fun. So Mickey was really really cool. Did you ask him what his favorite player was. So no, and I'm trying to get the footage of that and I'll put it out as an episode Because I don't know there were people for the museum Recording it, but I don't know If they got my whole conversation.

Jamie Flanagan: 9:42

With those guys or not. I got a bunch of pictures but I don't know if I have the whole video, which would give me the audio. But what I had asked because, like when you go in the Baseball Hall of Fame, you got to pick the hat you pick the team. Right, and, and I said so, if you had to pick a hockey stick or a microphone for this tribute today, uh, which would it be right? So and uh, so yeah, he's like oh, wow, you know what did he choose?

Jamie Flanagan: 10:11

uh, it's, it's, uh. He just went out he just come on.

Charles Avison: 10:16

He didn't answer the question at all you gotta wait.

Jamie Flanagan: 10:18

You gotta wait for it to hear it. Oh okay, that's fair that's fair.

Charles Avison: 10:21

So I want to know what his favorite player is. While the red wings players, he's he's as a broadcaster and also as a player. Those are the questions I'd like to know.

Jamie Flanagan: 10:28

See who's his favorite.

Charles Avison: 10:29

Who's his favorite, who he played against and who's his favorite?

Jamie Flanagan: 10:32

I wish you were there. I didn't ask that.

Charles Avison: 10:34

Oh well, congratulations on the way. Didn't ask the one question I wanted.

Jamie Flanagan: 10:50

Well, but so I'm there and Rup was like, like I said, each time I opened to the crowd, rup Raj was like hey, and then so I'm there and we're killing time and I, the microphone was like way over someplace. So I was moving the microphone and it, you know it, and it was in the middle of these spotlights, in the middle of crowd, and everybody's still just standing there watching this empty space with no concrete, and you know, the guy's just kind of dittering around oh so it was what I mean where was it?

Charles Avison: 11:04

I thought it was in the streets.

Jamie Flanagan: 11:06

This was in the so, oh, so, you're doing it outside, no, in the basement, in the streets of detroit, the basement oh, with the cobblestones yeah, I got you so we were down there, but I thought the the handprint thing was outside in the well once they dry.

Charles Avison: 11:19

Oh, then they move the whole tablet out there. I got you, I got you, okay, so it wasn't actually. Yeah, they're not laying on the ground.

Jamie Flanagan: 11:26

Yeah, yeah yeah and uh. So as I'm moving, the microphone rupes like, hey, you're gonna do a little stand-up. He's like, so he starts heckling me and I'm like, oh my god I'm like you got these four legendary announcers I thought that they would have passed the mic back and forth and then we're having a competition. I was doing them individually too but you know what?

Charles Avison: 11:46

it just is a suggestion for next time.

Jamie Flanagan: 11:48

Go ahead, yeah, yeah but I'm like, I'm like rup. Are you heckling me?

Jamie Flanagan: 11:52

and he's like laughing him and his wife, they're laughing and I'm like I go, are you going to do a little stand-up? I go, as a matter of fact, they go. I'm here today because it is it's champions day and so I went, I go. Earlier today I gave a little talk about eddie tolan and then I told some of the eddie story again, again about the six touchdowns, but how he was a cast tech dude and how he's a michigan guy and you know, uh, just how the detroit story is like so complex and interesting uh that that they gotta listen to.

Charles Avison: 12:22

What was their champion, what was their response? I mean, you mentioned the tigers-Lions-Red Wings first championships in the same season.

Jamie Flanagan: 12:29

What was their reaction to it?

Charles Avison: 12:30

People were like really, yeah, like all the main guys too, they don't know anything about it, and I said, and that is the exact reason why we do the podcast, look it up, it's Detroit City Champions.

Jamie Flanagan: 12:42

It was cool and Rup was like. Rup was like you know, oh yeah, that's cool, so but he was heckling me. I'm getting heckled by rup rod. Well, I'm trying to interview as a suggestion.

Charles Avison: 12:52

I'm like, thanks as a suggestion the next time you find yourself in a room with four legendary announcers, next time make it a competition between them. Say it'd be like this, be like the question I want to know is this what you do, jamie?

Jamie Flanagan: 13:04

just a suggestion all right, just just when this happens again.

Charles Avison: 13:08

Yes, yes, yes, right. What you do is you say the question I've always wanted to know, yeah, right, I've never been in a situation like this where I've got four legendary announcers in front of me all at once. Okay, the question I've that's been unresolved question for all these years is which of you is the best, right? And then you say each of you gets five minutes. Yeah, that's the mic. Yeah, and say out announcer each other. You got to get a freestyle a little bit. So you got to say you got to out announcer each other.

Jamie Flanagan: 13:39

But here's the thing, here's class. Right, here's, here's, here's class. So Mickey who went first? I think mickey went first, um. So mickey did his handprints first, um, and then huell went, uh, and then greg, but, like I said, there was a good half hour in between each one of like the mix in the cement, right, um but eventually for each one, I called each one of them over to do the hands in the cement Right.

Charles Avison: 14:05

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:06

Yeah, and I was like trying to fill the time in between but and so the crowd was thinning Right and Greg was going last. The crowd really dissipated. So but here's the, here's the class and style that huel and mickey they didn't like. Oh, my hands are done, my see ya, I'm out, they stayed, they stayed.

Charles Avison: 14:25

That's cool they stayed while greg did his hand that's cool and I thought that is I was class that is like well nice, I got in the first gift bag I got my gift bag.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:36

I got my hands in the cement later I'm immortalized.

Charles Avison: 14:38

I got my gift bag. I got my hands in the cement. Later I'm immortalized.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:40

I got my gift bag I'll see you at the cocktail party. I'll see you late I'll catch you. Yeah, it's I'll catch you over there, though I thought that was really very classy really.

Charles Avison: 14:48

So I agree, I agree.

Jamie Flanagan: 14:49

So that was, uh, that was, champions day, spread the word a little bit down at, uh, the detroit historical museum, well, and you got to throw it, thrown into a crazy situation and you got to see once again, these people who have been are Detroit institutions and that who are, you know, who are leveled up as far as being able to speak the language of Detroit and understand Detroit topics and history and all this.

Charles Avison: 15:11

And you saw. I mean I'm just I'm speculating because I wasn't there, but I'm bringing, I guess, a question to you, which is that, from what you saw, is it fair to say that these guys knew nothing about the 1935 City of Champions?

Jamie Flanagan: 15:23

season. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was surprising to when I said it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Charles Avison: 15:28

And again, it's not an insult to anybody or anything like this it's the reality, which once again demonstrates that we're dealing with a subject matter which is literally again we've made the case already that this is the greatest season in the history of american sport. So once again we're laying out, we've again demonstrating that the greatest city in the history of american sport is, uh, is unknown and thus, like the, the, you know the, the reason why we do the show.

Jamie Flanagan: 15:53

Greg gave me his email, so I'm gonna email him. Okay, cool, so we're gonna. I'm gonna have him on. Uh, I'm gonna have one of my kids interview him for a school project, yeah, but I got his email, so greg's greg's greg's a really nice guy, cool no, my arm was hurting because he's so tall I was like seriously, I'm holding the microphone up. I had to switch hands because it's like anyway, but uh, not basketball, we're talking baseball, yeah, and that's kind of where we're at.

Jamie Flanagan: 16:22

We're talking east of the Mississippi we're talking scouting and development and the Tigers and how they developed scouting and development.

Charles Avison: 16:36

How they're integral in that in the early days. Yeah, they're integral in that in the early days, yeah.

Charles Avison: 16:45

So I mean the thing to understand, the thing to like, the sort of concept of understanding, like why this is, like you know, important or interesting or however you want to put it, is that the entire like the like in the 19, late 1920s, early 1930s, baseball was experiencing a massive, like fundamental change, was experiencing a a massive, like fundamental change, and the the like in the change was is that, uh, early 19, all the way through the early 19 to mid 1920s, the way that baseball players was, were discovered and signed and made their way to major league baseball was different than the way from the late twenties and on all the way to this very day.

Charles Avison: 17:18

Because in the in the early to mid twenties and earlier, all the way back through the late 1800s, and all this, the way that people, players, were discovered was, in essence, you had these town, you had these professional town baseball clubs all over the country and they all, like every single, you know, every town, had a baseball team and, of course, you had small towns, you had medium-sized towns, you had sort of next-side, sort of large towns. Then you had.

Charles Avison: 17:42

XXL, xxx, like Detroit and these bigger cities that had enough people and volume in that to host bigger and bigger crowds, to have bigger and bigger stadiums, to basically field bigger and bigger and more expensive teams. And so really a lot of it was about money, how much, how much money you could afford to, you know, to buy a player for. And so the, the, the original, you know, and I think a lot of times people look at our modern day affiliate major league system the way, cause this is what began in the late twenties, early thirties. They look at it as, like you know, it's kind of like how it's like kind of how it's always been. It's like such a standardized, formulaic system.

Charles Avison: 18:32

But what's interesting is is, um, is I like to, I like to make the case that the early, that the early 1900s, the system before the affiliates, in my opinion, was a better system. And I think so because each, in essence, every single, like say every single city in america, every town had a baseball team, and so if you just had like a small little rural town, all the local players would play there, and then you know, you know you'd have one guy who was like just like a super stud, yeah, like just killing everybody, and obviously way more talented than everybody else in the town somebody would hear about it somebody that was like a better, bigger town would hear about it.

Jamie Flanagan: 18:58

hey, you want to want to come play for us? Chattanooga, that was like a better, bigger town would hear about it.

Charles Avison: 19:00

Hey, you want to move over to Chattanooga. Yeah, you move over to the next bigger town.

Charles Avison: 19:03

There would be guys from around the general area that would be called over to play for these bigger teams, and these bigger teams, kind of like high school or more like colleges, battle for recruitment. That's how these teams were. Every single town in the country would be battling for, like the, the players that they could get for their sort of next tier up and then, and then, of course, then there'd be the tiers, you know sort of a higher level. Uh, you know more, you know teams above them, and it was. It was the, the, the talent, the, the, the, the. You know the league system, the makeup of the teams, that the, the caliber of the teams was far, it was was organic, it was all it was organic. It was teams that, like, were like oh, I think I can compete with these big boys, so I'm going to try to get in their league, I'm going to try to get into their championship contest, and so, and that's how in in t, you know, and that's how they competed. And so when we started to get up to sort of like the mid-tier cities, then those players would actually be sold to the higher level teams, and so it was a, I think, a far more efficient system because it reduced waste, like if, if a team like above them was like hey, I heard about this great short stop and a level that's you know, this town, that's down the way. We need a short stop. And this guy's like really good, I hear so they would like literally grab the guy and plug him in their lineup, yeah, and so all the way up to the major leagues. So major league team wouldn't necessarily. Um, you know they, they would like, oh well, you know this, I heard about this great player and so they would go buy them and then they plug them right into their major league roster, especially if he was like the sort of next town size down, yeah.

Charles Avison: 20:37

But again, what ended up happening was is is uh, you know, branch ricky, there's this whole story. You know branch ricky like changed the game. He started buying his own teams and shaping these uh, the minor league system to where the major league teams owned the, the small clubs below them and the. And one of the mythologies is that branch ricky just had this like light bulb moment where he's like if I can't, you know he couldn't compete with the yankees and this for for these like high caliber, cost players, right, and it was like he had this light bulb moment where he was like in branch he was a cardinals gm and he's like he had this light bulb where he's like, if I can't, if I can't compete with the yankees, you know, if I can't financially beat the Yankees, you know, if I can't financially beat the Yankees, like by buying my players, then I'm going to grow my players. I'm going to grow my own players, I'm going to have my own teams and I'm going to develop them myself. That wasn't the case.

Charles Avison: 21:25

And even in Branch Rickey's own words, and if you read there's a there's like the seventies grow your own Exactly, and so that wasn't the case, branch Rickey, it was a far more organic uh thing for branch ricky and and really the, the person who gets left out of the equation all the time. Um was was the owner, was the was the actual owner of the team. His name was sam sam breeden. All right, sam breeden's on like a unknown mate he made.

Charles Avison: 21:49

I don't even think he's in the hall of fame, but sam breeden is one of the most impactful owners in the history of major league baseball and the and what and the thing was is that the main thing with the Cardinals was that they would sign a guy that was in the minor leagues and say, hey, we're going to let him play, like you know, the rest of the season or one more season with this team, while he, like you know, we're going to pay this team money. We're like we identified this guy in this lower level team and like, next year we want him to play for us.

Jamie Flanagan: 22:18

So we're like we identify this guy in this lower level team and like next year.

Charles Avison: 22:20

We wanted to play for us, so we're going to give you money right now, and so then the problem would happen was is that that player would like become really good in the course of that year, and then they would sell that player to a different team, like the yankees, and so they would therefore undercut the guy that they just identified here's your money back. We got three times that much exactly or not even give them their money back you know, so they would like to you know.

Charles Avison: 22:41

So they were, they would, they were getting the shaft that was the idea and so they started buying minor league teams in order to stack those teams with the guys to protect them from the vultures that were out, which were poaching their players.

Charles Avison: 22:54

This is a story of the toledo mud hens uh, not, no, not specifically, but that because they're, but that. So the idea was is that all of the so that and so when the so the cardinals, once they started doing that, suddenly they started having they, you know to what all these other teams identified as like a pipeline, because they have all these like studs hanging out at a single team and they're like, and then they just feed them into the majors and the team the cardinals had, you know, had a great run. You had a great run of seasons from the mid-20s all the way through their, all the way through the 1930s and all these other teams got jealous and were like, well, that's how we got to do it.

Jamie Flanagan: 23:28

They were the innovator with this, the well they were?

Charles Avison: 23:30

yeah, well, they were the. They were the ones that can't you know that created that system and every boat.

Jamie Flanagan: 23:34

But every other team in the country started identifying like hey, you're on to something, or we need our own, we need to protect our own.

Charles Avison: 23:42

Yeah, but we need to start doing that too. But the thing is, what evolved out of it was this kind of mentality that the Cardinals had built this like system, and that wasn't how it started. They didn't start out going well. We need to develop our own minor league system where they have like young guys, that like rise to the ranks. That wasn't how it was. They were trying to protect their guys. They were trying to protect their players from basically getting vultured by these bigger money teams. That was really what it was. And then they just started, you know, then they had slots open on their rosters and like, oh, let's have a tryout and bring guys in, and then they started, you know, and that's, and so that's kind of how it started.

Charles Avison: 24:21

But what I'm trying to get at is what I'm trying to get at is is that by 1934, this system is still in its infancy, and I kind of equate the concept to, uh, when we're talking about scouting and development at this era where it's, it's almost like I equate it to when baseball or when, uh, when, when movies went from the, from the silent era to the talkies, you know, you had these actors and actors, actresses that were stars in the silent era that suddenly they're like everybody's doing talkies, you know, and then the silent era actor gets into the move to the talk and they're like, oh hey, how you doing. You know, some guy sounds terrible, you know, and all of a sudden they're like these guys, this is a. You know he's like he's, he, he's not part of the new era, you know he's. There's a whole new thing Right on t, you know, it's on a movie reel, yeah, but it's different, you know, it's a different sort of technology that everybody else is going with, which is the.

Jamie Flanagan: 25:22

How does that equate to baseball?

Charles Avison: 25:23

well, the, the transition from the, the previous model, where you had the town balls and players were getting bought up, okay, but the main thing is is that the scouts, the scouts who were trapped, like you still had to have representatives from your team, sure that were out there verifying the players that you were going to buy for your major league club.

Charles Avison: 25:41

You know that you were going to like you see it again.

Charles Avison: 25:43

You see guys who are like going from one team to the next and you read it. You might read about them in the newspaper, but you still want to send your own personnel to like take a look at the guy Right. And so that's what I'm saying is that when major league baseball transitioned from the like the, the town ball era, where the, where the players are just getting bought and sold by the different teams, to the higher level teams all the way up, you I mean you still had scouts. You still had guys that were going out to check out those players, to make you know to kick the tires and make sure the guy, when you get there, like hey, we just dropped X amount of dollar, a bunch of of money, on this guy, and you go there and the guy's like some big slob that can't even run around the bases or something you know like, you know like you got sold a bad, a false bag of goods you know like the newspapers have been hyping them on all this.

Charles Avison: 26:28

But the guy you know in reality, you look at me like this they're just trying to fill the bleachers.

Charles Avison: 26:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly they're hype merchants and the guy himself is really not that great, and it's so. You got to go and check it out for yourself, and so what I'm saying is those, a lot of these same scouts who were doing that at that moment. This is one of the sort of interesting aspects of of base. You know baseball history that really doesn't get talked about, which is this whole breed of scouts that existed in that era and then when this transition came with affiliate baseball that they that they had. You know that the teams reoriented how they did business in a different way, cause now they're actually like trying to fill rosters and they're trying to buy guys and protect them and like lower levels. You know like they actually had to do the, they actually had to identify, they couldn't just like. You know like if you had a scout, they actually had to identify.

Charles Avison: 27:18

They couldn't just like if you had a scout, that's like oh, we're just head hunting for our major league team and now that guy same guy has got to be like looking for, like lower level guys that are like just out of high school or just out of college to fill the ranks and rosters of the lower level minor league system. But the thing is they had to be good at what they did, because those lower level guys would eventually be knocking on the major league door and if you were crap at that aspect then your guys would never get to that, wouldn't be good enough to get to the major leagues and you're, and so they're terrible. So there was. So that's what I'm trying to get.

Charles Avison: 27:48

The long and short of it is that's the era we're talking about. That's these are the scouts. These guys we're talking about, these are the guys who ushered the tigers from that time before the, the, the um, before this, you know, from the old world system to the modern day, you know, to the, to this affiliate system and again, and so what that means is what we're talking about is the men who laid the foundation for the entire detroit tiger franchise, mine, you know their minor league system of, for how it exists today so egan is uh one of these guys wish he can absolutely is one of these guys and we'll get to.

Jamie Flanagan: 28:26

What a great name. Oh, it's a fantastic wish.

Charles Avison: 28:28

Wish, egan his name is aloe vicious who's aloe vicious? All right, that's a great old-timey name oh, totally, and you can see why they would shorten it to wish so who was the other guy you were just talking about, billy. Doyles, who we talked about last show. All right, so we're still talking. So the Detroit.

Jamie Flanagan: 28:44

Tigers Wish hey there, hey there, wish Come on.

Charles Avison: 28:49

So all these different organizations, you know, I'm sure, they had their own different style of systems for like how they, because you had to have responsibilities for each scout. You can't just have, like, every scout that's looking all over the country, so each scout has a certain territory which they're responsible for. And so the way that the tigers did it was they used they divided america by the mississippi river, and so you had scouts on the eat, to the east of the mississippi, and you had scouts to the west of the mississippi. That's how they divided their.

Jamie Flanagan: 29:18

Their scouting department up was by that river and all the guys that worked west of there. Their first name started with k that's most likely the case.

Charles Avison: 29:26

Yes, yes, radio.

Jamie Flanagan: 29:28

Radio stations west is that how it is? They start with a k. I was wondering where you're going with it out of the mississippi. They start with a w.

Charles Avison: 29:34

Yeah anyways, I was hoping you're gonna fill me in on details.

Jamie Flanagan: 29:37

I was just going with what you're saying.

Charles Avison: 29:39

So the guy we talked about on the last show, the guy we talked about on the last show was Billy Doyle, who was a big-name scouts, and the reason we kind of introduced him first was because he's on the Portsmouth flood walls. And he's a major Portsmouth and we're the biggest Portsmouth fans around. We love Portsmouth.

Jamie Flanagan: 29:59

If I hadn't deleted that photo, I would show it to you again.

Charles Avison: 30:01

Which one? The Billy Doyle, yeah, or the Floodwalls, the Floodwalls, oh okay, I got rid of it.

Jamie Flanagan: 30:09

Well, they got to go back and look at like you made me have to go listen to the question you asked.

Charles Avison: 30:14

Yeah, so Billy Doyle was a big-name guy and he stretched all the way back to the early 1900s and Billy Doyle was a scout east of the Mississippi.

Charles Avison: 30:21

And so the guy we're talking about today is Aloysius, his nickname is Wish Egan, and Wish Egan he's not just like a random scout, wish Egan, he's the guy that's in charge of the entire department east of the Mississippi, east side guys in charge of the entire department east of the mississippi and yes and so not only is he in charge of you know, you know, east of the mississippi, his territory, he like he's got detroit itself and so he's actually like scouting detroit and like he's like the like in like all the pictures I've you ever see a wish he's, you know, like basically, just like a like basically all these these big name like detroiters that these guys who are like from detroit or from michigan, they're all guys. Wish egan signed like he's like he. That was like basically it. You don't you ever, you don't really see many stories about wish egan like traveling around like the actual east of the mississippi. He was like the guy in detroit coordinating the efforts of all the comings and goings and he's in every picture I've seen. He's like right there with frank nave and the owner, and so so wish, wish, actually his, his history with the tigers goes way back and so, um. So I just just a couple briefs. He's born in a, born in 1881 in everett, michigan, so he's a Michigander through and through Right.

Charles Avison: 31:38

And so in 1902, wish pitched for the Tigers You're talking about like the second year the Tigers are in, are even in existence Wish is a pitcher for that team. And so this is the point where I mean Frank Navin is comes in with the Tigers in 1902 as a bookkeeper. So he's like meeting Frank Navin when Frank Navin is like, you know, whatever, he is 19 years old, just as an accountant working for you know the guy, just just like where he's at, he's a low level employee. And so it's not surprising that wish and Frank Navin may have become friends as just guys who were, you know and you know, with this with this Detroit baseball team team. But, and he and so wish, hegan, came in 1902 as a pitcher and he only had, he had a very short career right, um, uh, pitched for the cardinals from 1905 to 1906 and then by 1910 he came back to the tigers and started working in the capacity of navin's like, because by this, by 1910, naven is already. Basically, you know, naven is already. I forgot if he's the owner of the team at that point or not, but um, but naven is like the guy. Like naven, if he wasn't the owner at that moment, he had to have been because he had been at field by 1912. But they but he's. But anyways, naven is, like naven's, one of the main guys at this point.

Charles Avison: 32:54

And so wish comes back and so, like wish is basically like the way that I look at wish Egan is to say he wasn't just kind of like a scout, he was almost akin to like a general manager of the team.

Charles Avison: 33:05

Like wish Egan was a main guy that was like an, like a right-hand man to Frank Navin himself and so so, yeah, so, so you know this, this is a guy who so if he's like the right-hand man of Frank Navin and I wish he can work with the Tigers as a, you know, sometimes he's a coach he was never the head manager of the team, but he's always like a, like a coach or a scout or a right hand, you know, sort of a right hand main advisor to Frank Navin, and he worked in that capacity from 1910 through 1951 until he died, so 41 years.

Charles Avison: 33:41

He worked as the Tigers like top, one of the main top guys in the tigers. So very easily can you say that wish egan you know I don't know every single detail about how I mean there's not that much information about him, but but very easily can you see. I mean, look at this picture here. This is the night. The two pictures we have on the screen, yeah, they're from 1934 spring training, and it was wish egan who actuallygan, who actually ushered the Tigers into getting, because Lakeland Florida is where the Tigers have their spring training.

Charles Avison: 34:11

The first year they were there was 1934. And Wish Egan was the guy who picked out the site. I mean, he's credited with saying Lakeland, florida is where we're going to build our new spot. So anybody that's got that kind of pull inside the organization that's going to decide on, like you know or you know at least you know be credited with saying you know Lakeland's where we're going to do this spring training and they're still doing it today.

Charles Avison: 34:34

I would say, as a guy who has had a, you know, significant impact even at that time, had, you know, you know respect, you know leverage inside the, you know that you know decision making power within that organization and as such, I mean is is a, you know, is an essential cog for uh, for the development of the detroit tigers and he's a guy that saw it all from 1910 all the way through 1951. He was there for the entire, you know, for the from that switch from that town ball model to the affiliate model and then by 1951 that was a night, by 1951 it was that if that affiliate model was in full swing, right, I mean they had the whole the system of developing players is like the affiliate model was, like I mean by that point it was, you know, well sanitized and so that's what I'm saying is like this is a guy that was.

Charles Avison: 35:27

You know that you could very easily credit, and you know frank naven died in 19, uh, in you know, 1936. So so naven had been long passed away for 15 years before before wish egan's influence ended, right, so you know he was.

Charles Avison: 35:43

So you have this guy, wish egan, who carrying the torch, carrying the torch, and brought with him from the earliest days of baseball all the way through 1951. Uh, you know, talk about like a steadying force within this organization, somebody that could, you know, that that anybody in this organization could draw on for you know, imagine you're a guy, you're a young kid in the 19, you know 1940s or whatever, and you're like, hey, wish, how, what was it like in 1902, you know, pitching for the tigers in their second year of existence, like, what was that? Like like you could draw on, like you know, this is a guy again, who was they who saw it all new, you know, new to cob. I think I came to the tigers in 1905 but you know, was in that same era. He pitched for the cardinals in 1905. Wish he can did.

Charles Avison: 36:28

But you know, was of this you know of, like he was there for all of it and was still there all the way through the 30s, 40s and 50s, or at least 1951, but um, but a just. You know this is a guy who you never see anything about in any other source and as such, you know it was important to give this guy a little mention every once in a great while to let you know, to just give a point of reference.

Jamie Flanagan: 36:55

What's his third slide about?

Charles Avison: 36:56

Yeah, we got a wish In 1960, he was inducted in the Michigan Sports Hall of Fame Okay, he was inducted in Michigan Hall, michigan Sports Hall of Fame Okay. So you know, people of his era recognize that. You know what a, what a, what a you know force he was in his era and thus recognized.

Jamie Flanagan: 37:13

So, but you said he was the scout for the East, which included the home field of Michigan and Detroit. Yeah, and I would argue that.

Charles Avison: 37:18

I would say that that was actually his, that was actually his territory, even though he's like the, I mean, he was identified as the head of the, the you know everything East of the Mississippi and that would go along with somebody who's like basically in Detroit coordinating the efforts of everything you know going on East of the Mississippi and also, but he's, but the role he filled, I think he was actually, you know, more than just that. I think that he was actually, like you know, Frank Navin's. Think that he was actually, like you know, frank naven's right hand guy, almost like a general manager to to a certain extent, but certainly a right-handed guy. I mean, you got, um, you know, this is a guy who, like every one of his major discoveries I got a list right here all these guys are detroiters and you know detroit. Uh, um, you know local legends you've got.

Charles Avison: 38:02

So some of these names might not be too familiar, but, um, but there's a guy named Roy Cullen, being Cullen Beanie. He, this guy, roy, or maybe it's Roy Cullen Bynes, but Roy Cullen Bynes was like in his day, roy Cullen Bynes was a, was a machine, like this guy. Like you said, he was like known for like getting all kinds of walks, like. I think he was with the Tigers in the 1945 World Series, but he was a stud early on. And so, roy Columbine, he discovered him. He was a Detroiter. Hal Neuhauser, who's a Hall of Fame, just one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Dizzy Trout, jim Bonning, who-devers Dick Wakefield Dick Wakefield in his day was like an absolute sensation. Johnny Lepon, stubby Overmeyer, art haupman and barney mccoskey um, and they also have. It was at egan's insistence that the tigers traded mccoskey for george kell in 1946, and so um, so yeah, so you know, this is a guy so like that. So all of his biggest name discoveries are guys who were like detroit local you know local detroit legends.

Charles Avison: 39:00

So it stands to wit that, um, that that really his.

Charles Avison: 39:04

If you're talking about scouting territory, where he was like the eyes on the baseball games, right then those, then then it really his specific territory was detroit and that maven would leave him to go watch the games and do stuff like this and then, you know, he would kind of basically run the you know he would run this, he would, you know, run the scouting departments east of the, mississippi, for sure, but his more direct territory was detroit, in the, in its surrounding, and really michigan maybe at large, but, um, but, but in any case, a you know, a guy who worked with the tigers from 1910 to 1951, uh, and you know is in to help choose lakeland as the tigers home, identified some of the biggest.

Charles Avison: 39:44

I mean, basically every local legend, every, every guy that we, that is referenced as a player that came from Detroit and played with the Detroit Tigers. Those are all his discoveries. So, like I say, it stands to wit that this is a guy who had a, you know, had an impact, who had a major role within the tigers, you know, in detroit, you know.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:05

You know like his home base was detroit so I find it interesting, because detroit was uh uh, a pretty integrated city at the at the time, uh, racially mixed, uh, in the north here people were coming here for jobs like crazy. We had the great migration and yeah, yeah.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:23

So joe lewis and them came from alabama, and out of that we you know eddie tolan, moved here very very young and and joe lewis moved here very, very long we talked about willis ward uh being an outstanding, uh, another outstanding, football player, um, and you know track and football, um, it's interesting that you know so. Jackie robinson, the, the first african-american player in the national league, and that was like, you know track and football, it's interesting that you know so, jackie Robinson, the, the first African-American player in the national league, and that was like what, it was 47.

Charles Avison: 40:50

Yeah.

Jamie Flanagan: 40:50

When he got in the first African well, the first person of color to play for the tigers, he was from the Dominican Republic, and what was that cat's name? I just lost him. Where'd he go? So it, I thought it was interesting that, uh, the first person of color to it, but the first african-american player was, uh, jake wood, uh, and that wasn't until 1961 yeah, that's like wild.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:22

And then and we're talking about willis ward, and then eddie tolan. We're talking about eddie tolan scored six touchdowns in a high school football game, right, you know? And then went to michigan and didn't get to to play football. And you know, it's rumored that there was a a ban on uh, african americans in the nfl, yeah um, because no african-americans played in the nfl from night in from 1933 to 1945.

Jamie Flanagan: 41:49

There were, there were not, yeah, um, yeah, I thought that was that was crazy. But the first african-american player, uh, for the lions was, uh wallace triplet, uh, and that came uh in in 49. So actually the lions, uh, pretty early on, we're ahead of, we're ahead of the, the tigers, uh, on that. On that I just I just thought that was interesting because I mean your base of if, if detroit's your market and and you're looking at the outstanding athletes in detroit, um, some of those af, of those African-Americans players got got passed by, um, cause it, baseball had the Negro league going on Right, and so that was, that was where you know they got to play Right. So, and until you know, jackie started breaking things down and things changed from there. I just thought that was interesting. Well, I'm wondering you know how that played into the?

Charles Avison: 42:45

I don't have any direct information or anything like this, but I mean, it's like, it's like a lot of stuff that you know involves, I think you know, human nature and human behavior, which is that you know there's a, there's an industry that does something one way, you know I mean they're doing they're, they're all following sort of adhering to the way things just kind of are. You know, they're just kind of it's. I mean, yeah, you could make a case like a modern day america too.

Charles Avison: 43:07

Yeah, like you know, if there's any, you know any kind of injustices that are out there, you got. You know, I mean the the by and large majority of people in the world. Don't go I'm gonna lead a crusade to make the world a better place. They just they want to collect their paychecks, they want to keep their, their jobs, they want to do their thing and they want to just kind of move forward. And you know it's, I mean that's. You know you could make a case that it's. You know, if you're going to say you know, like, you know it's, you know that's, that's the, that was the at the at the time there was that was the. The situation was you. You know there wasn't a lot of like necessarily racial crusaders that were. You know it doesn't necessarily mean anybody was a particular racist or something like this.

Charles Avison: 43:45

Well, yeah, no, but I was the idea that it was just kind of like the way things were and it's not a defense, and it's not anything, except for just to say that you know that, like as far as his scouting and development, you know it was just I.

Jamie Flanagan: 43:56

You, as you said, you know detroit was his market. I'm like well, all right, there were some amazing athletes, though, for sure, and and just from well. The other side of what I remember from the story so far, there were a lot of african americans on the baseball teams, no, or the football teams, and actually and the guys we talked about we just mentioned.

Charles Avison: 44:14

They were all football players and stuff like that, yeah, so I mean, so there were, there were none on the professional teams um at the at this time and I.

Jamie Flanagan: 44:23

But when you said he was scouting this area, I was like, oh, when did the first African-American person of color play for?

Charles Avison: 44:30

Yeah, no, and I was curious. As you were talking, I was looking those things up, I was like, oh, that's interesting. I just thought it was interesting. Yeah, and I couldn't recollect off the top of my head either that it was Jake Wood in that. Yeah.

Jamie Flanagan: 44:44

But yeah, in either case. Um, I just thought it was. I just thought it was interesting. It's like when, when did this unfold? When did when did when did these things?

Charles Avison: 44:49

yeah, well, and the other side of it too is, is that, as the affiliate system was built too, is that the affiliate system itself was built without black players. You know, african-americans factored into the equation, right, and so if that's the pipeline system and they're not part of that sort of pipeline system where they're getting signed and put into the lower levels of the minor leagues to work their way up the chain, then they're off the radar altogether. So I mean, you kind of say that that's where you know if they're not getting included into that system either, then that's then they're. You know, because even Jackie Robinson, he didn't just go right to the Brooklyn Dodgers, he went to the minor leagues first. He went to the minor leagues first. You know he's just a special, all-world, just multi-talented athlete that went to. You know that they signed him and he actually went to Montreal first and then, from Montreal, you know, he demonstrated his ability at the minor leagues and was so good that they're like, yeah, well, this is an opportunity to bring him in.

Jamie Flanagan: 45:39

This guy just has to play, get this guy playing. Anyway, I was was just as we were talking about that and I was like, oh, so what, the face of scouting, uh at the time, what it was, what it was like and what it led to.

Charles Avison: 45:54

so yeah, well, no, it's. I mean no, that's that was, that was the world that I mean even like the us army.

Jamie Flanagan: 46:00

It's all the way through the 1940s, all the way through world war ii was segregated and everything, so yeah, yeah. So I mean, like it wasn't just like baseball, it was like the world at large yep, I just I just thought it was interesting, just I was, I wanted to look at that, just trying to look at those dates as we were, as we were talking yeah it's a good refresher, because I didn't.

Charles Avison: 46:20

I forgot what year the first tiger black player was, so yeah, yeah, so it's just a little later than I thought it would have been but in any case, you know the entire, you know with, you know the development, for all of its positives and negatives, the development of the tigers. You know a, you know a major role in the development of, of this franchise, um, you know was, was, um, um was wish egan you know, for, for for good or ill, and so um, and I'll just give.

Charles Avison: 46:48

I got a couple quotes here we can, I can spit out a little quick just kind of frame a reference around a little bit.

Charles Avison: 46:53

So, uh, there's a quote right here I have my book from um, uh, francis, francis stan, who was a baseball digest writer from july 1951, and so obviously he's he's kind of talking about 1951 is when. When is when wish he can pass. So, uh, this is, you know, this is most likely some kind of like a remembrance or, you know, sort of a tribute to him, but he said he used to descend into mine shafts to talk to fathers of boys who couldn't sign contracts because they were underage. He's been known, known to time a visit to a youngster's home while school is still in session and wipe dishes for the mother awaiting the boy's return. Parents are often underrated people. Wish philosophizes. On occasion I liked him on my side, so that's one sort of quote about Wish. He can climb down in a mine shaft, which is a novel approach to looking for, you know, to talk to a father in that.

Charles Avison: 47:46

Yeah, um, and so then this is here's one for uh, talking about how uh wish egan in detroit. So it says egan sandlot finds play in minor loot in minor loops. So this is from the from september 23rd 1934 from the detroit times, and it says wish egan, the gray fox who scouts for the tigers here hereabouts, is determined to find himself a local boy who can make good with the Tigers. Wish bids fair to becoming the chief rival of Eddie Goostree, who we're going to talk about on the next show. Wish bids fair to becoming the chief rival of Eddie Goostree, discoverer of Schoolboy Row and others, as the leading ivory hunter for the Tigers.

Charles Avison: 48:22

The soft-spoken wish, however, has limited himself to the sandlots of Detroit and around the state. Never a Sunday goes by that Egan isn't sitting on the players' bench or high in the stands at some amateur game in the vicinity. The majority of the local sandlot activity centers on Northwestern Field and that's where you may find Egan. So all know, says the headliner of this next passage is all know, wish, all of the Sandlotters, from the youngsters in class E to the more seasoned players in AAA. No wish by sight. The old timers call him by his first name and wish is Mr Egan to the youngsters. On several occasions during the Sandlot season, wish has been talking to likely, likely, looking prospects between innings, giving them a few helpful hints. So you even said right there that wishes territory is Michigan and Detroit.

Charles Avison: 49:08

That's where he'd like that's his direct scouting territory anyways, and then he would be reporting back to Frank Navin and coordinating all this, all the activities East of the Mississippi, on top of that, you know right on Cool man.

Jamie Flanagan: 49:22

So, uh, more scouting history coming up.

Charles Avison: 49:26

We mentioned right there eddie goose tree, and eddie goose tree is a beast. I mean, this is the guy that discovered school. Your role in this discovery school, I believe going to school by rose discovery story, because it's amazing.

Charles Avison: 49:34

All right, because because school boy role was like just one of the I mean school boy role would like when he, when they discovered the school boy like the reason, the reason like schoolboy Roll was pitching he's a teenager pitching to adults I mean that's like, so they're like. You know, that's his discovery of schoolboy Roll and the way he signed him and everything is a fantastic story. So we're gonna. We have another, we have a good one for the next.

Jamie Flanagan: 49:57

There we go, looking forward to the next one, eddie Goose Tree, right on.

Charles Avison: 50:00

Alright, so there.

Jamie Flanagan: 50:01

Eddie Goose Tree Right on, All right. So there you go. So like subscribe, leave a comment, do all those podcast things and all the podcast places. Detroitcityofchampionscom that's the website a good place to get connected with the books and merch and tintypes and plaster of Paris, busts of Charles they got those up there, I am my side, I have them.

Charles Avison: 50:24

I do my own plaster of Paris busts of Charles. They got those. Up there I am. I said I have them. I do my own plaster pairs. Boss of me.

Jamie Flanagan: 50:29

Yeah, I don't know, I'm just making crap up.

Charles Avison: 50:31

Yeah, yeah, it's well, you know, I wouldn't be opposed to it if we had a market for it, I'll sell whatever we want.

Jamie Flanagan: 50:36

There you go, all right, but yeah.